Talk:Welsh independence


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Early comments


Luke, sorry my mistake I'm going to completely restart this page.Lenincymru2007 23:46, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Use the {{hangon|}} tag along with a reasonably valid reason to give notice that you contest the speedy deletion. I'll put this page on my watchlist to monitor its progress. If it progresses, it won't get deleted by an admin per CSD criteria. Luke! 00:00, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
sorry Luke, I've tried to progress it as much as I can tonight, I hope changes have addressed your original problems - there is no longer any reference to Plaid Cymru or the blogs, it is simply a stub. Can you remove the request for immediate deletion?Lenincymru2007 00:05, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the CSD notice to allow you and other editors the chance to add additional content to this article. Consider adding content that can be verified through reputable sources to help establish a firm notability for the article's subject. I'll try do some copyeditting once there is more content. Luke! 00:08, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Luke, I hope this is a bit better. Still need more help - will email a few people to get them involved.Lenincymru2007

to do


I'd like to get involved in building this article - I can see one or two other (mainly the "founder"?) are adding to it. But some questions, what would be the main things to develop first - history, devolution, nationalism? Maybe if we can split the work up and each concentrate on one thing we can get it up and running quicker.

Also, anybody got references for the 60's Welsh bombings/sabotages? I know nationalism in Wales is not on an IRA scale, but I think its and intersting story. --sony-youthpléigh 18:12, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Aye I have references for the bombing campaigns, let me know.

I too would like to get involved in building this article, I have no knowledge about the subject content, which is good as I can focus my efforts on it's layout. Ryan4314 (talk) 08:04, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Please note there exists a separate article on Welsh Nationalism which may be a better place for information about MG and the bombing campaigns and some of the other potential topics proposed. Normalmouth (talk) 10:56, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm yes, Welsh independence is the goal of the Nationilist party, so they will deserve a mention. However it may be the goal of other parties as well, so they will need fair coverage. Ryan4314 (talk) 20:21, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Righty, I've had a look at Scottish independence & United Ireland articles. From these I can gather we need a "History" section, then a "support" and "oppose" section. Obviously the last 2 need to be referenced and neutral. Also we should add this tag: {{Politics of Wales}} Ryan4314 (talk) 23:28, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Laws in Wales Acts


repealing the Acts of Union between England and Wales in 1536 and 1543 just thought I would inform you all, these laws have been repealed. 82.11.223.222 (talk) 19:40, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks and well spotted on the Statute Law Database! Don't be shy to make changes like this yourself, though. We need edits by people who know what they're talking about! Pondle (talk) 10:49, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Info Box


Given this is an article about Welsh independence, it would surely be more appropriate to have the welsh dragon in the info box rather than the Royal symbol that is there? Any objections to changing it? --Snowded TALK 19:22, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

I take your point, but the image is part of a wider template - Template:Politics of Wales - and it seems to be standard practice to use a coat of arms in a politics template rather than a national flag (see Politics of present-day states - I admit that I haven't checked all the articles, but as a relevant example, the Scottish version of the Royal coat of arms of the United Kingdom is used in Template:Politics of Scotland). The current Royal Badge of Wales was designed specifically for the National Assembly and appears on the cover of Assembly Measures. Pondle (talk) 20:24, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Agree with Snowded. We should change the template instead. Daicaregos (talk) 21:44, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
But as I said, if you look at the overwhelming majority of the politics templates, they use the appropriate coat of arms or logo rather than a flag. I've mentioned Scotland, here's Australia, France, Germany and the USA. I know that nationalists and republicans may dislike the Royal Badge of Wales, but it exists as an objective fact regardless of people's opinions of it. Airbrushing it out of Wikipedia would not seem particularly neutral to me. Pondle (talk) 22:01, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
The examples you gave, Pondle, are different to each other - For Australia: Coat of Arms of Australia says: "The Coat of Arms of Australia (formally known as Commonwealth Coat of Arms) is the official symbol of Australia." The 'royal' badge is not the official symbol of Wales. For France: The template shows both the Logo de la République Française and Armoiries République Française. National Emblem of France says: (of the Armoiries République Française: "The current emblem of France has been a symbol of France since 1953, although it does not have any legal status as an official coat of arms." and (of the Logo de la République Française) "In September 1999, the French government adopted a unique official identifier for its communication, incorporating the Republican motto, the colours of the flag, and Marianne, the Republic's personification." So France use an unofficial symbol and an official identifier of the government. Wales' symbol is Y Ddraig Goch, and the Wales Assembly Government is too see this. For Germany: Coat of arms of Germany says: "The coat of arms of Germany is a sign of Germany; the coat of arms features an eagle. The colours of the coat of arms are similar to those of the flag of Germany (black, red and gold). It is one of the oldest extant state symbols of Europe and is among the oldest insignia in the world." So the symbol used for Germany is one that goes back into the mists of time. The red dragon, which is also "among the oldest insignia in the world." For USA: Great Seal of the United States says: "The design on the obverse of the great seal is the national coat of arms of the United States.[1] It is officially used on documents such as United States passports, military insignia, embassy placards, and various flags." Y Ddraig Goch is ubiquitous in Wales and is seen as the shorthand for all things Welsh. The only similarity between the above examples is that they graphically represent the relevant country. The Red Dragon does that job for Wales. The 'royal' badge does not. Daicaregos (talk) 23:00, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm not claiming that the Royal Badge of Wales represents the country, simply that it's suitable emblem to represent politics and government in Wales on the Politics of Wales template. The new badge was designed to be a suitable emblem to mark the unique character of Assembly Measures as Welsh legislation. Acts of Parliament bear the Royal Arms of the United Kingdom, and this is used at Template:Politics of the United Kingdom rather than the Union Flag or the Westminster Portcullis emblem. Acts of the Scottish Parliament bear the version of the royal arms used in Scotland, and this is used at Template:Politics of Scotland - even though the Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament both use the saltire in their logo. The Assembly and the Welsh Office both formerly used the old royal badge featuring the Red Dragon on various types of official documents, but making this older image the symbol of contemporary 'politics and government in Wales' would seem anachronistic to me.Pondle (talk) 23:50, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
When and where exactly was it decided that a Royal badge somehow represents 'Politics and governent in Wales'? (this is a genuine question).--Rhyswynne (talk) 08:16, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Template:Politics of England has the cross of St George which is surely a more relevant precedent. --Snowded TALK 11:35, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Looks like a WP:BOLD (i.e. no discussion) edit here (on Template:Politics of Wales). Discussion is needed on that Talk page. Daicaregos (talk) 14:17, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
I'll respond on that talk page - I was going to suggest moving the discussion there, we've gone a bit off-topic here! Pondle (talk) 15:58, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Article re-write


Reading this article, it seems very bias and I'd like to re-write it.

For instance

'Welsh independence is a political ideal advocated by some people in Wales that would see Wales secede from the United Kingdom and become an independent sovereign state. This ideology is promoted mainly by the Welsh nationalist party, Plaid Cymru.[1]'

Is it promoted mainly through Plaid? There are a whole raft of organisations who promote Welsh independence.

'These conflicting sentiments were reflected in the relatively low turnout at the referendum and the narrowness of the victory for devolution campaigners.'

Why are we putting opinions in here?

I would like to spend some time rebalancing the article though will seek consensus before posting anything. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Richardeast (talkcontribs) 22:35, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Richard, Plaid is by far the largest and most electorally-successful organisation to advocate Welsh independence, although I admit that they have equivocated in the past. Other groups supporting independence are or were small fringe entities such as Cymru Rydd or the defunct Free Wales Army. We do need to include them in the article somewhere although they shouldn't be given undue weight. The second statement you criticise is not an expression of an editor's opinion, but a comment by respected Welsh political analyst Denis Balsom in Balsom and Barry Jones, eds (2000) The Road to the National Assembly for Wales. This is a reliable source, and as the guidance says, "Wikipedia articles should cover all major and significant-minority views that have been published by reliable sources". Pondle (talk) 10:48, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Wales on Sunday poll


I was a bit confused reading this article to see one of the polls mentioned (the one from this WalesOnline article) showing vastly higher support for independence than all the others. Our article explains this by saying "the poll mostly interviewed people in North Wales where support for independence is strongest", but I don't see where this information comes from - it certainly isn't in the current version of the WalesOnline piece. I would guess that a more likely explanation is that the survey asked a different question to others, but I can't find any details at all about how the survey was carried out, other than "by phone". 80.2.62.193 (talk) 08:36, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

The figures in the 2006 article are said to be 51% in north Wales, 53% in mid Wales, 45% in south west Wales and 40% in south east Wales. If the overall figure is 52%, there must - statistically - be a higher number of respondents from mid Wales than anywhere else. That is completely counter to the real population distribution in Wales, in which roughly two-thirds of the population are in the south east. Even if the regional figures are reported accurately, the correctly weighted overall figure for Wales, from that survey, would be more like 43%, not 52%. That survey also talks about independence "in your lifetime", rather than "immediately". In my opinion, completely unscientific straw polls like that one should not be mentioned in the article at all. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:27, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Polling


I reverted changes to the polling section as they added commentary which interprets the source. They also added in one comment about 'daft' which while cited had no evidence its representative or notable. ----Snowded TALK 19:01, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

The polling section should only include surveys conducted by BPC members that use appropriate sampling and weighting. Poll conducted by a website was added on 6th May 2019 that can not be treated the same as other polls listed as it was a survey of readers. There is no information on whether it was an Open-access poll. It should be removed, but in the meantime I have added notes saying 'Survey of readers without sampling or weighting'.

Additional source


Is this source okay to be placed in the last sentence of the support section ? I see there is one but just in case I think an additional one would be better, specially regarding that 3 percent mentioned in both sources. (N0n3up (talk) 00:48, 22 January 2016 (UTC))

Material only needs to be sourced once - multiple sources tend to be needed when material is contested----Snowded TALK 04:38, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

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