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Implementation of book namespace deletion

Yesterday, Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)/Archive_181#Delete_all_books_within_the_book_namespace closed with consensus for deletion while retaining WP:REFUND possibilities. The only way to achieve this is to move the pages to another namespace (presumably the Wikipedia: one) before deletion. Early on in the discussion I was under the impression this was not required (and thus the proposal itself was formulated under this assumption) but it definitely is as can be seen from the education program discussions.

My concrete proposal is to move all pages to subpages of Wikipedia:Books/archive with a bot and host a list of (deleted) books at Wikipedia:Books/archive. This will remove the possibility of refunding previously deleted books though. According to the WP:REFUND archives this has never happened though even though WP:BPROD explicitly allows for this. After this I will file a phabricator ticket for removal of the namespace. I also plan on dealing with related Book namespace cleanup which may have to occur before or after the massmove and namespace deletion. --Trialpears (talk) 07:49, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

@Trialpears: wait - do you want to undelete every page in Book:, move it, and redelete it? We are under no obligation to host deleted version indefinitely. — xaosflux Talk 07:57, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
Xaosflux No I was just noting that it won't be possible to undelete previously deleted books after this but considered that no big deal since we literally never had a refund request for a book as far as I can tell. Perhaps I formulated that poorly. --Trialpears (talk) 08:00, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
@Trialpears: OK thanks, I agree - and don't think we should do anything to try to maintain those currently-deleted-versions. — xaosflux Talk 08:06, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
There's only ever been 24 restorations in those namespaces, almost half for history merges or splits, and so there's little chances of this being an issue. On the other hand, there aren't all that many deleted pages there to start with - some 1319 in Book: and 952 in Book talk:, compared to 7691/7357 currently existing - so briefly restoring them for the move seems like it would be low-effort. —Cryptic 13:28, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
I mean it wouldn't be too annoying with twinkle d-batch and und-batch, but I'm inclined to just not bother given the tiny amount of restorations historically as well as how unlikely it is for there to be worth while content among them. If someone thinks it should be done I'm happy to do it though. --Trialpears (talk) 14:14, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
Trialpears, FWIW I also agree that undeleting previously-deleted Books isn't worth the time and effort given there has been negligible interest in REFUNDing them up to now. firefly ( t · c ) 16:45, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
Like I've put at in the closing note of the RFC, I disagree with moving to userspace. It would be very problematic, because Book-namespace books were community endeavors, and had multiple editors and no 'owner'. Before the book namespace existed, community books were hosted at Wikipedia:Books/Foobar. This is where their resting place should be as well. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 16:07, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
Headbomb A few books were indeed proper community endeavors with more than one significant editor, but the vast majority was not with only one editor making significant edits. For the former category I have no problems if they get refunded to Wikipedia:Books/Foobar. --Trialpears (talk) 17:18, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
Put them all there, there's no reason to treat pages in the namespace differently. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 17:58, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
Headbomb I'm unsure exactly what you're suggesting: That all books be moved to Wikipedia:Books/Foobar without deletion, with deletion but with refunds or moved to Wikipedia:Books/archive/Foobar with refunds to Wikipedia:Books/Foobar.
In my opinion just refunding to either userspace or Wikipedia:Books/Foobar depending on what the requesting user requests makes the most sense. As for the reason I suggest Wikipedia:Books/archive/Foobar is that would make Wikipedia:Books/archive an obvious place to list all books moved in this process, give instructions on how refunds should be handled and a short explanation of how come books were deleted.
If it is that you don't think they should be deleted but just moved I don't necessarily disagree (I !voted neutral in the RfC and remain so) but I really don't want to prolong discussion more which would be necessary in case there are objections to the deletions per the close. --Trialpears (talk) 19:45, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
That they should all be moved to Wikipedia:Books/Foobar, and not User:Foobar/Barfoo. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:24, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
This is all an irrelevant tangent. The only reason pages are being moved at all is that if they are deleted in-place, their deleted revisions will become permanently unavailable (even to admins) once the namespace is removed. The correct location for a book (whether it should be in userspace, Wikipedia namespace, or somewhere else) can be discussed if and when a specific book is restored. * Pppery * it has begun... 20:27, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
The should all be preserved at Wikipedia:Books/Foobar, not deleted to begin with. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 21:49, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
No point in debating the outcome here, this isn't how you'll get it stalled or changed. Gonnym (talk) 08:43, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
The consensus was to get rid of the book namespace, not delete all books therein. RFC closed with "Editors felt that it should still be possible to access books currently in this namespace." Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 13:56, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
I think we can start by disabling all editing in book namespace (except for admin editing), title blacklist or otherwise. Currently, the title blacklist disables the creation and the saving of new books to book namespace. After, we can contact all book creators about the book namespace being deleted and help them move it to userspace, giving them six months to a year to have their book moved. If an editor does not claim their book, then it will be gone, presumably permanently. Books with multiple authors can be moved to Project: space. Anyway, this is how I would approach it. Aasim (talk) 21:29, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
Awesome Aasim I think your proposal would make a lot of sense if this was the one time where something would be essentially non reversable and the books wouldn't be undeletable, but since the books will first be moved to Wikipedia space and then deleted refunds will work just as usual. Anyone visiting a book should notice the big red banner on top of the page explaining that books will be deleted. We can also clearly communicate what happend using Mediawiki:Titleblacklist-forbidden-book and {{no article text}} and give instructions on how to request refunds. Also worth noting that most edits in the book namespace currently are dab fixes, red link removal and userfication, so I don't see any reason to stop editing there. --Trialpears (talk) 11:26, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

So I've been away a few days and am just catching up on this, so forgive me if I get something wrong. It seems like there is consensus to delete pages in the Book: namespace, but in a such a way that deleted revisions are retrievable. It doesn't seem like pages have been deleted yet, so we're still in the planning phase, yes? If so I want to summarize what I think the plan going forward is and how to do it efficiently.

  1. Move all pages matching r/ Book:(.*) / to r/ Wikipedia:Books/archive/\1 / without leaving a redirect
  2. Delete all subpages of Wikipedia:Books/archive
  3. Create a documentation page at Wikipedia:Books/archive explaining the historical context, where titles hosting deleted book revisions can be found, and how to request undeletion if one wishes
  4. Disable the book namespace in the site configuration

The first two seem relatively simple to do by script, and given the consensus to have the revisions accessible in some future way, I believe we should not skip straight to disabling the namespace. The minutia of where to restore can be handled by the relevant admin when requests come in, and I don't think we need to figure that out right now. For books that are currently deleted, I agree that undeleting them would not be wise; we would open ourselves up to restoring BLP violations or other inappropriate content, and without much interest in them I don't believe we need to retain stably deleted content just for the sake of retaining revisions editors are unlikely to request. That said, it would be nice to establish a timeline for namespace deactivation and advertise it so that interested editors have time to request any pages they might wish to keep.

Is there anything I'm missing? Have we coordinated volunteers for any of these tasks? Wug·a·po·des 20:42, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Wugapodes, Trialpears currently has a BRFA open that’ll handle (1), and I believe they will then do (2) as a batch deletion. If nobody else has yet claimed (3) I’m happy to draft it. firefly ( t · c ) 20:57, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
Seems that the BRFA has been closed as approved though it has only run on the Education Program namespace so far. @Trialpears: do you have an estimate on when you plan to expand to Books? Wug·a·po·des 21:04, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
Wugapodes you've essentially said everything I was thinking but clearer, I don't believe you're missing anything major either. The one bot currently interacting with books has been disabled, but we should ensure nothing using the {{ns:}} parser function breaks and MediaWiki:Coll-community book prefix should be deleted along with the namespace. There are also a couple of categories and other things that should be cleaned up afterwards, all of which should be included at User:Trialpears/book related things but again nothing that actually influences the plan you outlined more than adding a point 5: Miscellaneous clean up.
I plan on doing everything necessary if noone wants to help out. Firefly just volunteered for 3 which I think sounds great, and I got the impression 54nd60x was perhaps interested in helping looking over documentation, backlinks and other miscellaneous parts as they did for the Education program namespace. For when I would say no earlier then a week from this discussion opened so probably Sunday if nothing here indicates that would be inappropriate. My opinion is that a big red banner on all books for a month is sufficient notification, I also plan on personally making sure Book refunds are handled quickly and smoothly. Ultimately though I'm not in a hurry and can wait if people think there's a benefit to doing so. --Trialpears (talk) 21:25, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
As nothing have come up I plan on proceeding tonight. --Trialpears (talk) 10:13, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
Excellent, thanks. We will then proceed with tagging for speedy deletion the thence empty Bookspace-related categories under criterion G6, housekeeping. Best, UnitedStatesian (talk) 19:24, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

I am quite upset that as an active creator and user of multiple Wikipedia books I was not notified of this proposal until it became a fait accompli and the moves started appearing on my watchlist. I can re-host them under my user space, of course, but I have been using these as curated collections of readings for my university courses and this move will break (has already broken?) all of the links from all of my old course syllabi, as well as the links to them from my Wikipedia user page, and any off-site links that may well exist beyond my control. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:23, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

David Eppstein I'm sorry you didn't get notified, but I think a reasonable attempt was made to reach all interested parties. The discussion was listed at WP:CENT for over a month, the discussion occured at our most active page for major proposals, Help talk:Books was notified as well as Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Wikipedia-Books including a ping to all project members and there's been a big red deletion banner on {{saved book}} which is used on literally over 99% of books, yours being in the tiny minority that don't. I'm quite happy though that the mystery of why Book:Fundamental Data Structures got significantly more views than any other page in the namespace with about 15 a day is now solved.
Your comment brings up quite a good point though: We haven't used watchlists to notify about this discussion and given that we now are moving all these pages generating watchlist entries it would be a good idea to give people time to see these and move their books if they so want. I'm thinking waiting another week between moves end and deletion starts would be a good idea. --Trialpears (talk) 21:47, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
There is a reason why my saved books stopped using the {{saved book}} template, and therefore why I never saw any notifications that way: because, long before this proposal, it stopped being a useful thing to include on Wikipedia-books and instead turned into a big banner explaining why some external service for printing things that I never cared about in the first place wasn't working any more. Since that banner was not useful information for my books, I removed it. And I am still mystified why the fact that this external service going away was used as a justification to delete our internal space for keeping curated collections of articles. Why do they have to be printable to be useful? Also, I don't watch any of the VP pages; they are for the most part a firehose of uselessness. I expect that the same is true for other editors more interested in content than bureaucracy. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:55, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
David Eppstein Your frustration is understandable and it's very unfortunate. I'm wondering though what concrete thing you want there to be done about it. I've stopped the bot while we have this discussion, but I don't feel much can be done. I guess you could ask for a review of the close at AN possibly reopening the discussion, but I don't believe there was anything wrong with the close nor the notifications given or any other procedural point. --Trialpears (talk) 22:06, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
I believe that a process that did not make any attempt to notify the content creators, even of a book that you already knew was the most frequently accessed on the whole namespace, and bring in their point of view before the formulation of the RFC, is fundamentally broken. The whole RFC was pre-judged by people who don't use these books, without any input on who uses these books, what they use them for, and whether the existence of a third-party service has any relevance to their existence. The only reasonable outcome would be to throw out the entire RFC and start fresh, with proper notifications. But I don't expect the people invested in process and bureaucracy to do this and I don't think escalating to AN is likely to be anything but a waste of time and effort. As for stopping the bot moves until this discussion subsides: Why? So that others who might have seen the moves through their watchlist remain ignorant of it and don't bring their point of view to the discussion? —David Eppstein (talk) 22:10, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
Just because I've seen other cases where people (quite reasonably) think it's inappropriate to run a bot while its activity is under discussion. Since you don't intend to take it to AN and are fine with the bot running I've restarted it again (and I was in fact contemplating how to deal with it when I saw your message). --Trialpears (talk) 22:28, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
I too am surprised that you did not seek to directly inform either the creators or the main editors of the books. It's not like we're inactive. We're just not always looking at a book we created for others to use, perhaps initially created a decade ago for a set group of topics. As only existing templates were changed, not the books they were on, the impending change would presumably not show up on watchlists. As Book:Furry fandom was created by members of WP:FURRY (probably not an uncommon situation), I have moved it to Wikipedia:WikiProject Furry/Book. I suggest that informing related WikiProjects might be beneficial due to the risk of creators who may be absent for more than a week. Perhaps a bot could do this based on project templates or categories on talk? In our case we had {{WP Furry}} on it resulting in Category:Book-Class furry articles being added; a subcategory of Category:Book-Class articles. GreenReaper (talk) 22:36, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
In fact the whole process appears to be counter to Wikipedia policy (specifically, Wikipedia:Deletion policy, which outlines methods for coming to consensus on the deletion of content, none of which were followed here). —David Eppstein (talk) 22:44, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
GreenReaper I mean I could certainly notify the around 580 WikiProjects that have a Category:Book-Class articles (great category name) and the about 5000 accounts from a purely technical perspective. I do feel it is a bit excessive though. I'm not even sure if this could be called appropriate notification under the canvassing guideline with it likely being deemed spamming and possibly partisan.
For the deletion policy objection that feel like wikilawyering to me. The important part is that there's consensus for deletion. I could just as easily see objections to taking this via MfD since that is a less watched forum that would only require a week of discussion as well as MfD being illequipped to handle complex outcomes since almost all decisions there are just a binary delete or don't delete without significant prep work. --Trialpears (talk) 09:30, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
I'm thinking waiting another week between moves end and deletion starts would be a good idea. I think it is important to pause much longer than a week before deleting anything. Somebody mentioned 6 months. Perhaps that is excessive, but a single week is far too hasty — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 18:49, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
GhostInTheMachine Sure it could wait longer, but I really don't see much reason to. We've had notifications placed on top of essentially all books for over a month already and if they weren't noticed during that month I doubt many more would notice them if you give it another month. The reason I thought a weeks wait would be significantly beneficial was that everyone who have a book on their watchlist would see the move and possibly move it if so desired. My thought was that items older than a week were unlikely to show up on peoples watchlists and be checked, but given that it's possible to see things up to 30 days after the edit occurred I guess it's reasonable to keep it for that long. Any longer than that I have a hard time seeing will matter from a practical perspective. Refunds will be easily available with clear instructions. Does another 30 days hold time seem reasonable then? --Trialpears (talk) 13:24, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

I tried to userfy Wikipedia:Books/archive/Malaysia by moving it to User:Chipmunkdavis/MalaysiaBook, but as a non-admin I cannot move "a title with a double-namespace prefix". Would someone be able to carry this out for me? CMD (talk) 02:03, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

@Chipmunkdavis: I just moved it and I'm not an administrator (unless a bureaucrat has gone rogue). Did you put an extra "User:" for your intended target? Sdrqaz (talk) 02:27, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
I really couldn't say either way, but thanks to you and your rogue bureaucrat. If this is a me issue and not a technical, that's good news. CMD (talk) 02:33, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

I was somewhat bold and created {{Book namespace deletion}} so that consistent information could be inserted into the various places that still talk about the Book namespace in the present tense. I will add a link to Wikipedia:Books/archive as soon as that exists — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 18:36, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

@GhostInTheMachine: I created Wikipedia:Books/archive; please feel free to edit. Best. UnitedStatesian (talk) 20:11, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
Y added a link to the book archive — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 21:40, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
UnitedStatesian thanks! Firefly also made a version of that page at User:Firefly/booksdraft. I took the liberty to combine your two versions. --Trialpears (talk) 13:39, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

All books have now been moved. The Book: and Book talk: namespaces are empty (except Book:A Novel) so I've filed T285766 asking for the namespace to be removed. This will have no impact on userfying books at Wikipedia:Books/archive from the Wikipedia namespace. --Trialpears (talk) 14:41, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

@Trialpears: to help me and others plan, how long do you expect to wait until you proceed with the batch deletion of all the subpages of Wikipedia:Books/archive? UnitedStatesian (talk) 11:46, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
UnitedStatesian My current plan is waiting a month to allow more time for userfying books before deletion. The deletion of the actual namespace I see no reason to delay as there's no content there. --Trialpears (talk) 14:26, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
Thanks, @Trialpears: that sounds great. Question: why did you recreate Book:A Novel after your move designed to save its history? I'm worried its existence will hold up the Phab task and think you should delete it now, so the namespace is completely empty. UnitedStatesian (talk) 15:59, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
UnitedStatesian That was indeed brought up at phab. Since Urbanecm who will be implement this is a steward he will just delete it before deleting the namespace. --Trialpears (talk) 17:43, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
@Trialpears: What should we do about MediaWiki:Titleblacklist-forbidden-book? Should we keep the blacklist entry, or should it be removed as the ns no longer exists? If it should be kept, then the wording of the message and the wording of the comment of this blacklist entry on MediaWiki:Titleblacklist should be changed. 54nd60x (talk) 05:11, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
54nd60x honestly I'm not sure. On one hand the namespace doesn't exist anymore, but on the other it is still very unlikely that people want to edit a page with a Book: prefix and I can see people attempting to do so since it exist on other wikis. For the time being I've edited the message. Xaosflux, do you have any thoughts as the editor who added the blacklist entry? --Trialpears (talk) 07:38, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
At the least we should have a cool-down period, we can live without article titles starting with "Book:*" for a little while, maybe 6 months or a year. — xaosflux Talk 10:15, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

@Trialpears: In my opinion, Template:No article text and MediaWiki:Titleblacklist-forbidden-book still need to be changed in some way for the following reasons. First, Talk:Book:Example and other pages beginning with "Book:" after the ns prefix (including e.g. MediaWiki:Book:Example as well) still shows the message when it's not supposed to, because for example, it creates a broken link to [[Talk:Wikipedia:Books/archive/Example]] when the first example is used. "Talk:Book:" or any other "Book:" after any namespace was never a namespace before. MediaWiki:Titleblacklist-forbidden-book doesn't show properly on Book talk:Example either, it doesn't link to the project book archive subpage. 54nd60x (talk) 10:52, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

54nd60x Thanks, I misremembered the scribunto pattern limitations, they have limited zero-width assertions not none. It should now be fixed as well as enabled on book talk pages. Same goes for MediaWiki:Newarticletext. --Trialpears (talk) 11:25, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
Trialpears Book talk:$1 is still being rendered as Wikipedia:Books/archive/$1, but it should be Wikipedia talk:Books/archive/$1. Also, Book:Book: is showing the second "Book:" as "Wikipedia:Books/archive/" instead of just "Book:" 54nd60x (talk) 11:30, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
54nd60x First part is intentional because I thought that would be the more useful location, but I can see both sides of that. We had no orphaned talk pages in the book namespace though. The Book:Book: issue is fixed. --Trialpears (talk) 11:44, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
Is the noindex of Book namespace from search engines preventing us from finding the article? google:Book: A Novel only shows the former page title, I don't know if it has to do with this. 54nd60x (talk) 07:41, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
54nd60x I believe that's just because google hasn't re-crawled it after the move. Looking at the config change it removes indexing for the relevant namespace ids, not based on the url meaning it should be completely unaffected. --Trialpears (talk) 13:00, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks to Trialpears for planning and executing this plan in such detail. Must be worth at least a barnstar when all is complete!  Martin (MSGJ · talk) 04:20, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Tomorrow there has been a month since the move. I will probably begin deletions then, but I will also do my first traveling since the start of this over the next few days, so it is likely it won't be done for a couple days, especially when considering some of the related cleanup that can only really start after deletion. --Trialpears (talk) 07:02, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
All Wikipedia:Books/archive/ subpages have now been deleted. There is still some minor cleanup ongoing but all big things should now be done. --Trialpears (talk) 12:26, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
Category:Book-Class articles and Category:Wikipedia books sub-categories still need to be deleted. Gonnym (talk) 12:58, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
@Gonnym: Would you please explain why you are blanking pages within user subpages? The move of some to userspace was explicitly in line with the community consensus. It might also be a good idea to notify users as a courtesy if you are blanking pages within their userspace. CMD (talk) 14:07, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
Ah, I see the templates are up for deletion. Does this mean the old talk pages must be deleted? If so it seems better to ask for them to be deleted instead of simply blanking them. CMD (talk) 14:25, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
Before we delete Category:Book-Class articles and its subcats, we need to ensure that none of them can be populated by mistake - such as by somebody using |class=book for an article about a book (it has happened). Is it best to tackle the individual custom class masks first (example), or amend {{class mask}} together with {{class mask/templatepage}}? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 14:35, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
I've deleted Category:Wikipedia books and Category:Wikipedia books (community books with bugs) now and made sure there's no category pollution in Category:Book-Class articles. My plan for the assesment categories is to deal with the class masks first with Category:WikiProject_templates_using_the_book_class listing them all (I'll give it a day to populate) and then remove it from {{class mask}} and friends as well as deleting the categories. --Trialpears (talk) 22:14, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Is there a bot/script for easily pinging all partipants in a previous discussion

I was wondering if there is a bot or script which can scan over one previous discussion, like an RfC, and list of users involved in such a discussion. The reason is would be useful is be able to quickly ping all previous user if a new discussion or RfC came up that is highly related, and saves human time looking over old discussion trying to list all users manually. For example it would be great to easily ping all users in this previous RM automatically (given it is lengthy) for the now same RM that is now ongoing. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 14:01, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm not aware of any such tool. I believe it would have to be a script, as I'm not aware of any way to make a lua module grab the text of the page it's invoked on, which is what you'd need to feed the function for it to pick out the names of participants. But I'm not intimately familiar with WP's backend, and other users may be aware of something I'm not. I could probably write such a tool in Javascript, if there's a call for it. I believe I've offered to write this very tool once before.
I've done this a few times, and I've never had much trouble gathering up all the names for a mass ping. I usually open each signature link in a new tab, then copy & paste out the names (this avoids the problem of accidentally trying to ping an editor's displayed name, as opposed to their actual username). ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:17, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
For reference, you can get the wikitext of a page a module is invoked on, using mw.title.getCurrentTitle and then calling getContent() on the title. See mw:Extension:Scribunto/Lua reference manual for more (it's great)! Tol | talk | contribs 15:27, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
I've often thought this is something I needed, but never got around to writing it. Maybe some day. One of the difficulties is figuring out what a discussion means. I guess anybody who edited a particular section delimited by a level-2 heading? -- RoySmith (talk) 15:57, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
I would say any editor who left a signature between the level 2 header that starts the RfC (a user could type this into a template that invokes the module) and the next level 2 header.
Should be simple enough to find whatever text is between User: and either |, or ]] and turn that into a list. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:28, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
Thank you, Tol I had the manual open and was looking for it, but I just didn't see that. That makes it easier, as it could be put in a module and then invoked via a template. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:25, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
No problem! Tol | talk | contribs 17:18, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Spy-cicle and Tol & RoySmith (because I suspect you two might know a thing or two that's useful here). I put together a function in a sandbox module I've been fiddling with at Module:Sandbox/MjolnirPants. I also slapped together a template at {{Rfcping}}. I haven't figured out how to print the output of the module to the page (subst-ing the template will naturally just place the invoke statement on the target page), and my Lua is probably shitty because I hate regex like it was satan and my entire Lua resume is right there in that module.
If someone with more experience writing modules than I wants to take a poke at cleaning up my code or tell me how to "subst" the invoke call, that'd be awesome.
Right now, the discussion has to be on the page you're editing, and you've got to use the page-level edit button, but I already know how to solve both of those issues, I just don't have the time tonight.
If I (or we) can get this fully functional, I plan to make a dedicated module for it and fully document the template, at that time. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 21:48, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
@MPants at work: In a function in p, just return what you want to output. Tol | talk | contribs 23:24, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
Sorry; I misread your question. Perhaps check out safesubst? I'll take a look at it later. Tol | talk | contribs 23:26, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
I'm back and looking into that now, thanks for the tip. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 12:37, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
Ha! You nailed it. From your link, I followed the "Recursive substing" link, and the first suggestion there works. When I tested it just now, it produced parseable wiki markup. So now I'm going to go ahead and fix the two issues I mentioned above before I start moving things around. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 12:46, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
Thank you all for the responses to my intial post (did not manage to reply quickly as caught up with other stuff). And thank you in particular MPants at work for creating the template, I will try using and try to mention on it on relevant talk pages now that such a tool exists. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 00:38, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Why some image doesn't displayed in Page Previews?

For example Yuriko Koike (image from Commons, resolution 225 × 300 pixels), and there are many pages like this I've encountered before. Resolution too small? Hddty (talk) 10:40, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

It displays for me. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:27, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: It still doesn't display for me when logged out. Hddty (talk) 02:31, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
@Hddty: Are you using an adblocker or any other browser extensions that can block elements of a page? (talk) 00:25, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
My hunch is that this is a connectivity issue. Right-click and open the image (in a new tab) and tell us what the page says. Nardog (talk) 00:29, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
It's not because connectivity. The image still doesn't displayed after I disabled all browser extensions. After previewing all bio on 2020_Summer_Olympics_opening_ceremony#Nations another person with image that doesn't displayed in preview is Rebecca Nyandeng De Mabior (image in Commons/not fair use and resolution quite small), so its probably because low resolution (though I think all image should be displayed even if the resolution is small). Hddty (talk) 07:00, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Ah, you mean mw:Page Previews. You're right, it's because the original resolution is too small: . Looks like a landscape image has to be at least 320px wide and a portrait at least 250px tall. Nardog (talk) 07:30, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
I still see the Page Previews image for Yuriko Koike but not Rebecca Nyandeng De Mabior. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:11, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
Maybe that's because of monitor size? After zoomed out this page I can see the image for Yuriko Koike but not Rebecca Nyandeng De Mabior (even after max 25% zoom out in Chrome). Hddty (talk) 03:30, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

How to add wiki code to the END of my talk page?

TL;DR How can I add |} to the end of my talk page? I used to have it in the form of subpage, but this clashes with the new 'reply' system. So I merged the subpage back into wiki code, but now the formatting is affected (check my talk page to see the problem - I want beige coloring all the way, but it stops few posts from the bottom as the |} code is above the newer messages. TIA. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:59, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

An unclosed table is automatically closed at the end of the page so you can omit |}. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:26, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
Note if you use the visual differences beta feature (which can be enabled as an option on diff pages in your preferences or by adding &diffmode=visual to the end of a diff URL, and can be used even if you use the traditional wikitext editor for editing), leaving an unclosed element will break the output, as the autoclosing won't happen in the context of the diff. isaacl (talk) 14:24, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
Expect this to break all the time when other people go to your talk page, especially if they use "new section". — xaosflux Talk 19:20, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
Piotrus has been trying to resolve several formatting questions, and they are beyond me. There are two lint errors on his talk page at the moment, but I doubt that those are relevant. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:41, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
@Whatamidoing (WMF): <center> is considered a low-priority "obsolete HTML tag" - we have over 9million of these and I don't expect them to get resolved en masse anytime soon. — xaosflux Talk 15:48, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
phab:T287040 mentions Help:DiscussionTools/Why can't I reply to this comment?#Accidental complex transclusion. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:34, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
My talk page has color all the way to the bottom so I used that as a clue as to how to fix. Getting rid of the table seems to work. There's an unclosed div tag but that seems to not matter to the end result.— Diannaa (talk) 13:20, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
@Diannaa: In general, if a HTML element is left unclosed, its effects persist until the closing tag of the next element up the tree. So if you have
    <!-- some valid table rows and cells -->
that </div> will terminate the table as well as its matching <div>. But it's bad practice to omit closing tags unless the HTML documentation explicitly says that a closing tag is omissible - this is not the case for either div or table. The MediaWiki software goes some way to adding in missing closing tags, but isn't perfect - which is why we have Special:LintErrors. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 14:13, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
Pretty much this. If someone makes a complicated page and purposefully has malformed coding on it, they shouldn't expect other utilities that depend on standardized coding to function normally. — xaosflux Talk 14:18, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
I suspect we have a lot of colorful talk pages with flawed mark-up. Mine was originally adapted from User talk:Casliber.— Diannaa (talk) 14:36, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Overflow error

Not a AMT situation, but close enough :) xaosflux Talk 19:03, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
  • upstream connect error or disconnect/reset before headers. reset reason: overflow

For awhile now I was receiving this error (white screen in browser with this text at the top) when trying to view a category or even to sign in. It finally just now allowed me to sign in. And there was significant lag in even trying to view regular pages. Does anyone know what may have been going on? - jc37 11:07, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Something to do with a database overflow on ruwikinews caused due to a bot — Berrely  TalkContribs 11:09, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
See also phab:T262391 firefly ( t · c ) 11:11, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
oh ok, thanks for the info. That was really crazy lol - jc37 11:23, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
Background here:Викиновости:Форум/Общий/Архив/2020#DynamicPageList.
BTW, I know I'm preaching the choir on this page, but remember Wikipedia:Don't worry about performance? It has two sides. One is, don't worry unless the devs tell you to. The other is, if the devs actually tell you that mass-uploading hundreds of thousands of pages could make the servers fall over, then don't do that. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:07, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
See also explanation on Wikinews. By the way, Russian Wikinews hasn't been got any direction for the whole year until last crush. But who cares. DonSimon (talk) 07:39, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

formatting of guidance page

Hi all

A couple of years ago I spent quite a lot of time creating a guidance page on Commons to help people find high quality photos to use in Wikipedia articles and also outside of Wikimedia. I know at least a couple of people who use it regularaly in their organisations.

I've just come back to it and some of the formatting has really broken:

  1. The titles which are overlayed over the images have disapeared, I guess some ways of coding have been removed?
  2. The blocks of text and the title images are different sizes seemingly at random lengths

I've tried all the ways I know to try and fix this, if anyone is able to help I would really really appreciate it.

Thanks very much

John Cummings (talk) 12:40, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

I didn't see anything wrong with the page's display, but I fixed a big pile of unclosed tags. Maybe it will help. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:58, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
Jonesey95 thanks very much, I've got quite a high resolution display so maybe that has something to do with it. I got it to display to do the wrong sizes on my older laptop by zooming the page out with ctrl and -. John Cummings (talk) 20:19, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
I got the headings back by removing position: relative; from the divs enclosing them. However the page could really use a complete rewrite, ideally using TemplateStyles, so that it works on mobile. the wub "?!" 16:32, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
the wub thanks very much indeed, I've no idea how to do that, do you know anywhere I could make a request like that? John Cummings (talk) 20:19, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
@John Cummings I've started working on it :) The blocks should hopefully all be the same width now. Making it mobile-friendly is going to be tricky though, I'll take another bash at it this weekend. the wub "?!" 00:12, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
the wub thanks so much for this, I spent ages writing it and always very frustrated in trying to make it look right. John Cummings (talk) 08:31, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
@John Cummings Okay, I'm done tinkering with it now and it should look fine on mobile, as well as the code being much easier to maintain. Also took the opportunity to update some of the content, including the lists of competition winners. the wub "?!" 22:48, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
@The wub thanks so much for your help, it looks great. I'll try to reuse the code in other places. Thanks again, John Cummings (talk) 14:44, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Abbreviated journal names

Hi, hoping interested/knowledgeable parties might know something about abbreviated journal titles, which I am coming to as a newbie. It is called ISO 4 and there is an API for translating from long form to short (unclear about internationalization support). I am interested in going the other way, from short form to long. Does such a thing exist? -- GreenC 18:28, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

The ISSN LTWA or redirects tagged with {{R from ISO 4 abbreviation}} may be useful. If not then I'm sure WP:WikiProject Academic Journals will be able to help. Certes (talk) 18:36, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
I think you want to talk to @Headbomb. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 19:03, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
WP:JOURNALS uses TokenZero's tool quite heavily. There's an API for it and other advanced functions, and its also integrated into {{Infobox journal}} (although you have to opt-in, see this in particular. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 19:44, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
As for short to long, there's no way to do this automatically, since you lose information by abbreviating. For example J. Phys. Chem. could be Journal of Physics and Chemistry, Journal of Physical Chemistry, Journal of the Physical Chemist, Journal of the Physical Chemists, Journal of Physicists in Chemistry... and many others. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 19:51, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
It can sometimes be done automatically. J. Phys. Chem. is a {{R from ISO 4 abbreviation}} to The Journal of Physical Chemistry A. However, not all journals have such redirects, especially those where the abbreviation is ambiguous with another journal or a different topic. (Trivial example: Tetrahedron is about pyramids and not a redirect to Tetrahedron (journal).) Certes (talk) 22:00, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Another thought: Wikidata property:P1160 holds the abbreviation. You could create a local rainbow table of those and look up your abbreviation to decode the full name. Certes (talk) 22:05, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
@Certes and Headbomb: - thank you for your help. -- GreenC 22:25, 1 August 2021 (UTC)


Hi Village pump (technical), A few days ago I had created this user page to use Disam Assist. How can i use this to fix Disambiguation link? Please help me. Thank you ! Fade258 (talk) 06:00, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

@Fade258 You should find an option when on (disambiguation) pages. Qwerfjkltalk 09:03, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

All file page talk pages with Template:WPBannerMeta link to their corresponding file

Except not really. See for example Special:WhatLinksHere/File:Van Halen - 1984.jpg where File talk:Van Halen - 1984.jpg is listed as containing a link to the main file, but of course, it doesn't. I found this is caused by {{WPBannerMeta}} which calls {{Pagetype}} which is a wrapper for Module:Pagetype but the actual culprit could also reside in Module:Namespace detect which is loaded in Module:Pagetype.

My problem with the erroneous link is that LuckyRename uses WhatLinksHere to compile a list of pages to update and as a result frequently tries to edit the talk page of files and fails because there's no link there. This error isn't fatal but it's very common and just annoying.

How can that erroneous link on WhatLinksHere be made to go away? — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 10:17, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Found a way. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 10:39, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
Actually I didn't. Now what? — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 14:38, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
Help:What links here#Overview says: The parser function #ifexist: causes a listing in "What links here" among the normal links even though no link is produced. I don't know a workaround and haven't heard of cases where we omit template features to avoid such WhatLinksHere entries. PrimeHunter (talk) 16:52, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Messed up interwikis

For Eid al-Ghadir there are several messed up interwikis. E.g. Azerbaijani Wikipedia equivalent Qədir-Xum which is about the same holiday is not linked to Eid al-Ghadir and its interwikis are different from those at Eid al-Ghadir (e.g. Spanish Ghadir al-Jumm linked to Qədir-Xum is not the same thing as Eid al-Ghadir). Could someone sort those irrelevant or possibly duplicate interwikis? Brandmeistertalk 13:30, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

This would be better to ask at d:WD:PC probably. Izno (talk) 13:32, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
(edit conflict) @Brandmeister: you should be able to update all of these here: wikidata:Q15109140. — xaosflux Talk 13:34, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
Issue raised at WD:PC since I'm unable to reassign interwikis due to conflicting interconnections. Brandmeistertalk 14:30, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Contributing to AWB

Hello there! I need help with this issue: Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser/Sources#How can I contribute to the code?. Is there any chance you can help me? :) --ԱշոտՏՆՂ (talk) 19:32, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

I have moved your question to the correct location, which is WT:AWB. Izno (talk) 19:40, 29 July 2021 (UTC)


I have some code which parses SPI pages using mwparserfromhell. It's mis-parsing Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Anglo Pyramidologist/Archive. I suspect there's a missing curly brace or something like that. Do we have any good tools for finding such things? -- RoySmith (talk) 20:47, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Just FYI that page is reporting the following pile of errors:
Old behaviour of link-wrapping font tags	11
Missing end tag	4
Obsolete HTML tags	21
Stripped tags	4
xaosflux Talk 23:14, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
@RoySmith: Do these edits help? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 23:21, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
@Redrose64 Yes, they did fix the problem, so thanks for that, but it did give me a few WTF moments as each time I tried a new debugging technique, I got different results as I hit different versions of yours :-( How did you find those problems? And, @Xaosflux what tool did you use to generate your list of errors? -- RoySmith (talk) 23:27, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
Brute force attack: look for any opening brackets, double-brackets, double-braces and triple-braces, and check that each has the appropriate closing construct that balances it at the same nesting level, and which encloses non-markup text. For example, this is a fix for an unmatched closing double-bracket that also fixed an unmatched opening single-bracket. By checking from the innermost level outwards, we pick up this where every opening tag or double-bracket also has a closing double-bracket or tag; but they overlap instead of nest, which is wrong. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 00:08, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
Oh, I see Page information from the tool bar to get the list of error counts. Then how do you actually dig down and find the specific places? -- RoySmith (talk) 00:09, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
I for one use lintHint on Special:ExpandTemplates to find responsible code. Nardog (talk) 01:53, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
Pageinfo gives the counts, but doesn't show you where they are or their precise nature. The 11 instances of "Old behaviour of link-wrapping font tags" are in peoples sigs where you have a construct like <font color=A>[[User:B|C]]</font> which should be altered to [[User:B|<font color=A>C</font>]] - I don't know why it's counting 11 where there are actually 13; whilst the 21 instances of "Obsolete HTML tags" should be the <font>...</font> tags (of which there are more than 50 pairs) and the <big>...</big> tags (of which there are more than 30), so I don't know why it's counting 21 where there are almost 90. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 08:37, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
The lint counter is not real-time. — xaosflux Talk 11:18, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
I have fixed all Lint errors in that page Special:Diff/1036275398. Redrose64, it was showing the count as 11 because font tag with face attribute is not counted as old behaviour of link-wrapping font tag error. Lint error count in page information is not accurate because the count for each type of error in a page maxes out at 20, sometimes 21. So a page can have hundreds of errors and it would still show the count as 20. <big>...</big> tags while obsolete in html 5, is not considered as obsolete by Linter. Apparently MediaWiki will continue support for big tags per mw:User:Legoktm/HTML+MediaWiki ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ (talk) 14:59, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
That page is Legoktm's opinion; there are several tasks about big tag in Phabricator. Izno (talk) 15:33, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
A proposal really :) I added a notice at the top to clarify though. That said, MediaWiki will continue supporting <big> tags until someone (some group?) decides otherwise. Personally I don't think going around fixing them is a worthwhile use of time, but I'm sure others disagree. Legoktm (talk) 04:32, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Repeated regular space


Is there a template or something that can produce multiple regular spaces? {{5x}} does what I'm trying to do but it's limited to 5 characters:

{{subst:5x| }}

I know you can add two spaces like this to produce 10 spaces, but I'm looking for something simpler than this:

{{subst:5x|  }}

{{Loop}} would be perfect but unfortunately it doesn't seem to work with regular spaces:

{{subst:Loop|10| }}
(nothing happens) (talk) 22:11, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

This seems like a case of the XY problem. What are you trying to do that would require large numbers of regular spaces? Is there anything in Category:Inline spacing templates that would do what you need? (talk) 22:29, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
Sorry for the vagueness. I need it for my AWB regexes that use the #expr function (for example, something like {{subst:Loop|{{subst:#expr:$1-5}}| }}). Didn't find any help in that category, unfortunately. (talk) 22:57, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
But why do you want a certain number of regular spaces? Saying how you want to compute the number is not an answer. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:17, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
I try to make this type of edits that VisualEditor does automatically to infoboxes. (talk) 09:42, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
But if there's no template that supports regular spaces, I can just probably make {{subst:Loop|{{subst:#expr:$1-5}}|AWBSPACE}} and then after doing that I'll replace AWBSPACE with one space. (talk) 09:54, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
Just realized I can't make this in one edit because you need to save your edit before subst works. I'd have to make two edits to make this work, so that's a no go. (talk) 11:06, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
See Module:String#rep but people get a bit irritated when others go around changing the style of existing articles and note WP:COSMETICBOT. Finally, AWB is supposed to be used by someone with an approved registered account. Johnuniq (talk) 10:02, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
I did look at that module, but I couldn't figure out how to substitute modules. And don't worry, I won't be doing this on en-wiki. (talk) 11:06, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
Then why ask for a template? Templates are local to a wiki. {{subst:#invoke:String|rep| |10}} works but modules are also local. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:03, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
Thanks! That did work after all. I'm pretty sure I tried that before, but the "show changes" button didn't show what I expected it to show (but now that I tried again, it does - how strange, maybe I typoed something). And now that I actually tried to save the edit, it worked. Fortunately many templates/modules have been imported to other wikis and work similarly. And if not, I can always copy the template from en-wiki. The reason I asked here is that usually I find technical help here more easily. (talk) 13:27, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
If a post isn't about the English Wikipedia then please always say what it is about. PrimeHunter (talk) 16:53, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Help getting rid of something I clicked on


User:Maile66/Nettie Houston Bringhurst - I was going through checking myself, and clicked on something - don't know what- in the left-hand tool bar, don't know what. Now I can't get rid of this piece of crap popup on the right-hand side that wants me to: Minimize, Shoe metadata, Send appreciation to myself, or go to the next age in the queue. I just want this ugly floating thing to get off my work and stay away. Forever. Closing down my browser did no good, and neither did purging the page. And it floats up and down the page as I scroll, covering over part of the view of my window. What a piece of junk. Please advise. — Maile (talk) 22:56, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

@Maile66: sounds like the curation toolbar. In the top of it click the right arrow to minimize it, then click the little x in the top right to close it. — xaosflux Talk 23:11, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
@Xaosflux: Thank you! I got rid of it. I never was a fan of page curation, and now less so. But thanks for your quick help. — Maile (talk) 23:15, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Gender used in messages is biased in preferences

In the preferences settings under the first tab named "User Profile" there is a section about: Gender used in messages, where a user can specify to be addressed by gender neutral, feminine, or masculine pronouns, and when another user hovers over the username the chosen pronouns will be displayed as he/him or she/her along with the user rights and other user groups of the user as well as their edit count and some other basic information about the user.

However, there is a technical issue with this feature that makes the preference appear to be biased in nature where the feature appears as if it doesn't work at all if a user chooses that they wish to remain gender neutral because if this option is chosen there is simply nothing at all displayed when you hover over the username, and there should be at least something such as they/them to indicate the user has made the choice and the feature is working. Huggums537 (talk) 18:35, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

I propose we add they/them to the feature to avoid the appearance that the preference is biased against people who choose to remain gender neutral, and to ensure that all editors will have a way of knowing the feature actually works. Huggums537 (talk) 18:42, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

I just realized this is probably the wrong place to post this. I will copy this over to village Pump (Proposals) in order to get community consensus to take it to Phabricator and then come back here and link back to the discussion. Thanks! Huggums537 (talk) 19:07, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Link to proper discussion area is here: Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Gender_used_in_messages_is_biased_in_preferences_(copied_from_Village_Pump_(Technical)) Huggums537 (talk) 19:07, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Discussion about Metrolyrics

Metrolyrics has been offline since 29 June 2021 and is most likely dead, there are many metrolyrics references on Wikipedia. Should these dead links be replace with another site's? Powering everyone (talk) 17:24, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

I've always been a bit suspicious of Metrolyrics, partly because it's javascript-heavy, partly because of the advertising, mainly because it seemed to be a wholesale violator of copyrights. Maybe it's been taken down for that last reason. According to it's been down for at least a week. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 18:07, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
about 1400 hits all namespaces.
Trappist the monk (talk) 18:22, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

So what should be done? Powering everyone (User Talk:Powering everyone) 05:37, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

When you are ready to call it dead post to WP:URLREQ and we'll get em archived. -- GreenC 22:02, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
I'd suggest outright removal, or replacing them with {{citation needed}}. Lyrics sites, much less this one, are most likely to be copyvio and fall within WP:ELNEVER. Nardog (talk) 22:23, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
It would require a consensus discussion, probably at RSN, with a result to remove them. The archive bots are not really setup for it, maybe some users have AWB scripts? In the mean time converting dead links to archives is a step forward. -- GreenC 23:44, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Selective transclusion

A section on "Dynamic tonality" was added into Contemporary classical music and again, identical, into Classical music. I replaced the latter identical text with a selective transclusion from the former, following the instructions at WP:SELTRANS. I can swear that when I did that on 25 July, it worked as expected. When I now look at the version where I did that, no transcluded text is shown. The code I used is:

{{transcluded section|source=Contemporary classical music#Dynamic tonality}}
 {{#section-h:Contemporary classical music|Dynamic tonality}}

Why is it so? Did anything happen to the transclusion mechanism? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 04:52, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

This fixed it. Apparently you can't place a comment in the same line as the section heading. Nardog (talk) 05:11, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
Yes, trailing comments break other features as well, such as the URL fragment after editing a section. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 07:46, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

erroneous "new external links" notification

When I made this edit, I got a warning message stating "Your edit includes new external links." As the diff shows, my edit does nothing of the kind; it merely corrects some punctuation in the text, not even changing an internal link, let alone adding an external one. So whatever script triggers that warning message is buggy. 2605:A601:AADC:2100:C2FA:4802:5984:FA49 (talk) 05:37, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

That sounds like an edit filter false positive. Qwerfjkltalk 08:50, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
No, it's from MediaWiki:Fancycaptcha-addurl, the MediaWiki feature which asks for a CAPTCHA when IP's and new users add external links. It can be triggered if a template somewhere on the page produces a new url. PrimeHunter (talk) 10:57, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
My edit neither added nor modified any templates, so if the filter thinks any template generated a new URL, it's still incorrect. 2605:A601:AADC:2100:C2FA:4802:5984:FA49 (talk) 19:20, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
A template anywhere on the page. Hard to say without knowing how Fancycaptcha-addurl works but there are weird things that can happen. If the problem is replicatable, you could save the HTML and extract the http://... and compare to see what is changing from a recent older diff version of the page (also the HTML). -- GreenC 21:56, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
If no one here has access to the Fancycaptcha-addurl code, would someone be willing to report the bug to MediaWiki? They apparently don't want bug reports from the unwashed masses, requiring an account to add one to their bug tracker. I can't determine whether the problem is replicatable without making bogus edits to the live page, but as you say, examining the code is the next logical step anyway. 2605:A601:AADC:2100:C2FA:4802:5984:FA49 (talk) 00:18, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
You could, of course, wash.  JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 05:51, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
It's most likely this edit to Module:Find sources/links/google newspapers, which is transcluded via the {{BLP sources}} banner, that triggered the warning. The article cache wasn't up-to-date before your edit. Nardog (talk) 06:04, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
I see. So the root problem is a bug in Fancycaptcha-addurl, where it is unaware of the difference between URLs in the page and URLs present only via transclusion. Should transcluded URLs even be under its consideration? For instance, if my edit had added the {{BLP sources}} banner where it wasn't previously present, this still doesn't seem to fall under the situation the captcha is trying to prevent, that of bots adding spammy external links. If an external link in {{BLP sources}} is inappropriate, that should be addressed to the editor of the template, not the editor of a page using the template, correct? 2605:A601:AADC:2100:C2FA:4802:5984:FA49 (talk) 22:28, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Why is it so complicated to ping somebody?

I just happened to notice I had been mentioned in Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Vyaiskaya, but never got a ping. Investigating, it looks like the signature and the mention came in two different edits, so the ping failed. I see this a lot. Why was it designed this way? It seems like an unnecessary complication which just means a lot of broken pings because people don't jump through all the hoops properly. -- RoySmith (talk) 13:38, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

A "mention" without a signature is often archiving or refactoring which shouldn't give pings. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:42, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
Would it help to add "show list of pings on preview/save" to next year's wishlist? Certes (talk) 15:12, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
On save is "Successful mention" at Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-echo. I do sometimes miss it on preview. PrimeHunter (talk) 20:30, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

How to connect pages with Wikidata items in the new Vector

This announcement is for Wikipedians who are using the new Vector only. For more information about the project, see WP:VPM#Desktop Improvements update.

In the week of August 2nd, the link for "Add links/Edit links" will be restored to the sidebar. It will appear in the Tools section as "Add interlanguage links/Edit interlanguage links".

When building the language button, we did not include the "Add links/Edit links" link. This was because this functionality is a part of improved language selector. That selector is currently being built by another team of the Wikimedia Foundation. As a result, the link was missing. We have received requests to restore it.

We explored the best way to do it as a temporary solution. We decided to add it into the sidebar in the Tools section. You can see the location on the screenshot.

When the improved language selector is deployed, the "Add links/Edit links" link will be back together with the language links in the button. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 13:40, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Color background

Hello! Can someone help me with a weird phenomenon I've been having at SqWiki? At, module documentation is rendered over a colored background; see for example, Module:Documentation. At, module documentation is rendered over an uncolored background; see for example, sq:Moduli:Documentation. What needs to be done at to render module documentation over a colored background in the same way that template documentation is rendered over a colored background; for example sq:Stampa:Dokumentacioni?

I don't know what causes the discrepancy. Our module's sandboxes are also lacking the sandbox template (even though I imported it from EnWiki) which I believe it is also related to the problem I explained above. - Klein Muçi (talk) 15:08, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

The messages are under MediaWiki:Scribunto-doc-*. Probably should add a note to that effect on Template:Documentation and/or Module:Documentation since I have to look that up every time. Izno (talk) 15:26, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
Added to Module:Documentation/doc#Porting to other wikis. Izno (talk) 15:38, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
@Izno: Thanks man! It got fixed. :) - Klein Muçi (talk) 13:42, 2 August 2021 (UTC)


Hi there, I sent an editor a message on their talk page wanting to show them how to add dashes to text. So I added both dashes within "nowikis", but instead of the text showing up, the dashes showed up. Eg. . Thanks! Magnolia677 (talk) 21:40, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

@Magnolia677: The issue is that the &ndash; and similar are HTML entities, rather than wikitext constructs, so wikitext escaping doesn't work. I displayed the code earlier with <code>&amp;ndash;</code>, using an extra level of escaping. Vahurzpu (talk) 22:22, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
@Vahurzpu: That did it! Thanks! Magnolia677 (talk) 22:24, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
@Magnolia677: You could send them a link to Wikipedia:How to make dashes. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:54, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
{{ndash}} and {{mdash}} also works too, if you want. Sdrqaz (talk) 12:10, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Nested template that works in some contexts but not in others???

Consider this simple construction:

{{Annotated link|Confédération Mondiale des Activités Subaquatiques|{{lang|fr|Confédération Mondiale des Activités Subaquatiques}}}}

which produces (as it should)

Confédération Mondiale des Activités Subaquatiques  International organisation for underwater activities

It works fine here. It works in my sandbox. It works at Template:Annotated link/doc#Examples (see 'Piped to use template:lang per MOS:FOREIGNITALIC' [which I added yesterday per discussion at template talk page]). But if I put it in the See also of a live page, any live page, I get

[[Confédération Mondiale des Activités Subaquatiques|Confédération Mondiale des Activités Subaquatiques]] – International organisation for underwater activities

(except that the second instance of Confédération etc is in italics, suggesting that it almost worked.

What am I missing? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 12:14, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

@John Maynard Friedman: When used in mainspace, the {{lang}} template also spits out [[Category:Articles containing French-language text]], which breaks the syntax of your intended wikilink. You can add nocat=yes to avoid this. -- John of Reading (talk) 12:23, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
Result! Have a barnstar on me. Thank you. I'll update {{Annotated link}} accordingly. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 12:30, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Photos in article previews are slightly cropped (preview doesn't fit in the window in MS Edge)

This has happened for months so far on my computer but anyways, I'll list my current system configuration.

  • OS: Windows 10 21H1 19043.1110
  • Edge version: 92.0.902.62 (Official build) (64-bit), running maximised
  • Screen (I think the issue is the screen size): 15.6 inch, 1366*768

I have screenshots (in case I couldn't clearly explain the problem) but I don't know where to upload them (Commons or Wikipedia?). I guess that an option to show the article preview to the left or right of the link (if the window is too short which is probably the problem here) can solve this.

Given that this has been going on for months, I thought that someone else woud have reported this but I couldn't find any such reports (but then again I have a history of unknowingly making discussions for things that have already been discussed before (on video game forums, even after checking to make sure I am not making a duplicate discussion) so I may be wrong to assume that I'm the first person to report this) Tube·of·Light 14:38, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

You can report this on WP:Phabricator. It has single-signon with WMF signon. Izno (talk) 14:49, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
I could but I don't want to give my email for a service I'll be rarely using (especially not at my current age). Besides, where should I upload the screenshots? Tube·of·Light 15:11, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
@Tube of Light See Wikipedia:Screenshots of Wikipedia.Qwerfjkltalk 15:23, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
You shouldn't need to provide your email, the point is that it's the same signon as your WMF signon. Izno (talk) 15:41, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
This has cropped (see what I did there?) up several times in different questions recently, so I started a gallery of examples that I came across - see User:Verbarson/cropping. The Page Previews feature was extensively discussed, tested and documented:
However, I have yet to find any discussion or documentation of the process that re-sizes a selected image to fit the preview. Can anyone point us to that? --Verbarson (talk) 21:21, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, I think we are talking about different issues. I have attached screenshots for my issue below. Tube·of·Light 05:37, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
In the 3rd image the page preview tool even places the top of the preview a bit above the top of the page. Tube·of·Light 05:37, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
Update: Even Chrome (version 92.0.4515.131 (Official Build) (64-bit) ) does the same. Tube·of·Light 05:44, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
It still asks for an email (I haven't provided one for any Wikipedia services). Tube·of·Light 05:37, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
Does this describe the problem?: (A) If the lead image for an article is landscape, then the preview will show the image above the text. (B) If the link being previewed is in the lower half of the screen, then the preview will be positioned above the link. (C) If the screen is small enough (eg a laptop), and (A) and (B) both occur, but the link is only just below half-way down the screen, then the image may be positioned high enough to run off the top of the screen.
I can reproduce that situation on my laptop screen, but it doesn't (and probably can't) happen on my 24" screen. --Verbarson (talk) 09:43, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
There is no issue if the link is not too close to the middle. If the link is in an imaginary band in the middle of the screen, the preview is shown usually above (sometimes below) the link but it ends up cutting part of the photo (or text). I don't know if portrait images have this issue and so far, the portrait images I found have been places to the side of the text Tube·of·Light 10:10, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
PS: I found out just now that text is cut out instead of the picture in some cases (I am adding the picture for that one now, and I've updated the above statement to reflect that). Tube·of·Light 10:11, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Desktop inconsistencies in mobile editing

I am perplexed in finding that the desktop appearance and editing experience is considerably different when editing with a mobile device depending on which of two possible links you may happen to choose when launching the desktop skin. To conserve space I have collapsed the screenshots and additional details in the box below. I am curious to know why this happens.

Additional details and relivant screenshots
This is a screenshot of the desktop skin as rendered when it is launched from the drop-down menu that appears when you click on the three vertical dots in the upper right corner of the page. Notice that while its appearance is similar to the desktop skin, it does not render the array of links across the page that one might desire or expect.
This is a screenshot of the desktop skin as rendered when it is launched from the "desktop" hyperlink (not shown in this image) located at the lowermost right corner of the page. While it does render the link array that one might desire or expect, its behavior suggests (to me) that mobile editing will never achieve a "desktop feal".

Incidentally, when I was uploading these files to Commons I noticed that their desktop links were identical to ours in both location and performance so I gather that this is not a bug or something that needs to be fixed, but it sure felt buggersome to me.

Thank you.--John Cline (talk) 18:17, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

@John Cline: those "three dots" controls don't seem to be coming from us at all - I think they are a control of your specific browser, that when clicked is trying to re-fetch/re-render the page? — xaosflux Talk 19:04, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
@John Cline The first image seems to be on the mobile site, en.m.wikipedia.orgQwerfjkltalk 19:17, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
Adding to what xaosflux and Qwerfjkl said: use the "Desktop" link at the bottom of the page. The "Desktop" button in the three-dot "kebab" menu is a browser feature that makes it try to pretend to be a desktop browser by changing the User-Agent string. This trick doesn't work correctly on some sites, including Wikipedia. In theory, it should be possible to update Wikipedia's software so that it pays attention to the User-Agent string in this case, but right now it doesn't. – Rummskartoffel 10:18, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
The three-dot menu doesn't work as you expected because our mobile site does not redirect you to the desktop site if you visit it using a desktop browser (or a browser pretending to be desktop) – even though the desktop site redirects to mobile in the opposite scenario. This is known as bug T60425. Matma Rex talk 19:36, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Tech News: 2021-31

20:45, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

class=mw-datatable no longer working in Firefox

See: Help:Table#mw-datatable.

I noticed this today. I don't know when it started.

class=mw-datatable is no longer working in Firefox in desktop view. I checked in 2 Windows 10 Pro desktop PCs.

In desktop view it works in Chrome and Edge.

It does not work in mobile view in all 3 browsers. I don't know if it ever did. --Timeshifter (talk) 03:17, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

mw-datatable works fine for me on that page. That said, the class in question is not obviously for non-MediaWiki-internal use and you should not expect that it will always work in arbitrary locations. Izno (talk) 04:12, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
Izno. I don't understand what you are saying. Are you saying mw-datatable is highlighting rows in your Firefox browser on the Help:Table page? It is not working for me in 2 desktop PCs in Firefox.
And not just on the Help page. But also in article space. See "What links here" for Template:Static row numbers table. It uses mw-datatable.
Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Static row numbers table
See the first article listed: Bauxite
I see the table row highlighting (when cursor is over the row) in Chrome and Edge, but not Firefox.
--Timeshifter (talk) 04:46, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
Also  Works for me, PC and Android. I suspect it's an extension you've installed that's interfering. Nardog (talk) 05:55, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
Works for me in Firefox using the monobook skin in desktop view, but the highlighting doesn't work in mobile view or using the minerva skin. —  Jts1882 | talk  07:03, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
@Izno: I don't think that the mw- prefix means that it is for MediaWiki-internal use, but that it is a class that has styling that is bundled with the MediaWiki software, so that it doesn't need to be added to the site's own common.css. As an example, consider the mw-collapsible and mw-collapsed classes: these are documented at mw:Manual:Collapsible elements and are generally preferred to our own collapsible and collapsed classes. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 08:17, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
Yeah I also don't think mw-datatable is internal only.. However, it might be that it isn't loaded automatically in the way that collapsible is, so wether or not it works might depend on the skin used and as we know, the skins are seeing quite a few changes recently... —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 08:55, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
I haven't seen anything anywhere to indicate that mw-datatable is meant for non-developer consumption given that it brings styles that conflict (slightly) with wikitable. mw-collapsible and co. were however clearly made to replace collapsible and co. Were mw-datatable meant to be used generally, the styles would be cleaned up such that the only addition they would bring would be the hover. Izno (talk) 13:58, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
Izno is right. This class is tied to an internal PHP class and those styles are not always added, shipped as part of the mediawiki.pager.tablePager module. They have never worked on Minerva for this reason.
It is currently not added in the same way as collapsible, (but could be). Jdlrobson (talk) 20:17, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
I would not have said "works fine for me" if it did not work. Izno (talk) 13:58, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
As regards the original q.:  Works for me in Firefox 89.0.2, Windows 7 Home Premium, version 6.1.7601 --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 12:19, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

I disabled all my extensions in Firefox, closed all Firefox windows, restarted the PC, and did Ctrl-F5. Nothing has helped so far. It seems that my Firefox is not loading anything from class=mw-datatable. All I see at Help:Table is this:

1 2 3

To me it looks like that with or without class=mw-datatable

I could uninstall all the Firefox extensions and see if that helps. --Timeshifter (talk) 14:46, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Which skin are you using? —  Jts1882 | talk  16:29, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
The skin is Vector. I've updated the URL above to make that reproducible. This will also impact Modern, MonoBook and CologneBlue this week. I've opened a Phabricator ticket. See top. Jdlrobson (talk) 21:27, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
Yes, I am using Vector. Thanks Jdlrobson for the Phabricator ticket. mw-datatable is used in a lot of tables. People like it for 2 reasons:
1: The row highlighting on hover.
2: The white background for non-header cells. It makes for more contrast especially when there are non-bolded links in the non-header cells. The blue links against the normal gray background of non-header cells are not very contrasting. Bolded blue links against the gray background of header cells are less of a problem, though I think the gray background of headers is too dark of a gray. class=mw-datatable is often used with class=wikitable and the gray header background of class=wikitable overrides the blue background of class=mw-datatable headers. People can see the "Vectorized" Help:Table link in Chrome or Edge to see it working correctly. --Timeshifter (talk) 22:12, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Can I borrow a pair of eyes at template:country density?

After several days of debugging, I can't find what's wrong with this simple template:

  • {{density|{{UN population|Bangladesh}}|{{country area|Bangladesh}}}} 1,094 works,
  • {{country density|Bangladesh}} 1,094 doesn't,

when {{country density}} is just basically {{density | {{UN population | {{{1|}}} }} | {{country area | {{{1|}}} }} }}. — Guarapiranga  07:02, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

The problem is that {{country area|source=|Bangladesh}} is currently returning "Template:Country area/" and presumably the square brackets in the red link are then reported as a problem. Omitting |source= gives a number. Johnuniq (talk) 09:17, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
I've went ahead and set source to default to UN (as it does in {{country area}}). The way parameters work in MediaWiki means if you pass an empty parameter to a template, it will not use the default value. BrandonXLF (talk) 21:42, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
Aha! Thank you, BrandonXLF.
So is my lesson from this that a parameter passed as empty is not the same as omitted?
Cheers. — Guarapiranga  22:29, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Strange behavior at Mitrella (gastropod)

The list in this article shows strange behavior for which I can't find an explanation:

  • Delicate Mitrella instead of Mitrella delicata
  • Mitrella flocked instead of Mitrella floccata
  • Fortuitous Mitrella instead of Mitrella fortuita
  • Mitrella inaccess instead of Mitrella inaccessa (with a pop-up showing Mitrella inaccessible)
  • Neocaledonic Mitrella instead of Mitrella neocaledonica
  • Nomadic Mitrella instead of Mirella nomadica
  • Mitrella Peroniana instead of Mitrella peroniana

The edit page shows the right spelling of the species names. I have no idea how the wrong names show up. What is the cause and what can be done ? JoJan (talk) 16:27, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Looks fine to me. It's as if you have some translation script running. —  Jts1882 | talk  16:33, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

New Vector?

What is the official / correct way for a user script to test for a page being viewed by a user that is configured to use the new evil Vector rather than the real Vector? They both show up as mw.config.get('skin') = "vector"GhostInTheMachine talk to me 18:06, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

@GhostInTheMachine: try: "options":"VectorSkinVersion" — xaosflux Talk 18:23, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
mw.user.options.values.VectorSkinVersionxaosflux Talk 18:25, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
Though technically, that is a user preference, and not necessarily how "a page being viewed" is set, as that page view could have an override such as ?useskin. — xaosflux Talk 18:28, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
So — just for anybody else watching — mw.user.options.values.VectorSkinVersion = 1 for real Vector and mw.user.options.values.VectorSkinVersion = 2 for evil Vector — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 18:41, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
Thanks, but I guess what I really want is to know the skin as it is now being displayed, so that a user script can code around the damage inflicted by Evil Vector — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 18:54, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
Old Vector has the skin-vector-legacy class on the <body> element, new Vector does not. (Both also have the skin-vector class.) Matma Rex talk 19:33, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Why is File:Pump.jpg considered salted when the file exists and is not controversial?

I was browsing the list of protected titles. While most of the forbidden titles are forbidden for obvious reasons, I noticed that a few links were blue (mostly ones that would break major articles or tutorials if messed with). One of the ones that stuck out the most was File:Pump.jpg. The inclusion on the list raised a few questions.

1. Why is it on the protected titles list if it is such a uncontroversial image?

2. How does this image exist if it was on the protected titles list?

3. How would this be controversial considering it links to no other pages?

Is there something I am missing here? Maybe it used to be a file related to the village pump that was replaced? Please call me Blue (talk) 18:52, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

See the log (log links are often not displayed). The image uploaded with this filename was, how shall I say, a bit more offensive than the current image. It was repeatedly uploaded and used for vandalism in articles, which you can see by following the links in the log. The protection means that it is 'locally' protected, meaning no one can upload an image with the same name on the English Wikipedia. If the filename exists on Wikimedia Commons (WP:COMMONS), then that's what you see. Anyways, that was 14+ years ago - IMO it's probably been protected long enough. -- zzuuzz (talk) 19:50, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply. I was wondering what was up with that. Please call me Blue (talk) 20:24, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Strange error on Sockpuppet Investigations page

It says "Expression error: Unrecognized punctuation character ",". Expression error: Unrecognized punctuation character ",".". I checked the source code and found nothing wrong. What is the error that needs to be fixed? Yleventa2 (talk) 23:12, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

It is not expecting an thousand seperator in Template:SPI archive notice, which it does get from the count of entries in the category for this person. {{PAGESINCATEGORY:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of {{{1}}}}} needs to become {{formatnum:{{PAGESINCATEGORY:Wikipedia sockpuppets of {{{1}}}}}|R}}. This line is used several times.--Snævar (talk) 23:29, 3 August 2021 (UTC)