Am I reading the guideline wrong? At the The Star Beast (Doctor Who), editors have been reverting my attempts to avoid the redirects in hatnotes, despite my insistence that this is the very first basic rule of hatnotes! Would appreciate any comments at Talk:The Star Beast (Doctor Who)#Hatnotes. --woodensuperman 11:39, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

There can be exceptions: Linking to redirects is typically not preferred, although of course exceptions can occur. It's a matter or consensus if a given situation warrants an exception. This is basically WP:IAR codified for a specific case.—Bagumba (talk) 09:20, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

The linked discussion needs more input to determine what the consensus is. Thryduulf (talk) 13:44, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

More aptly, I would say it's a reminder of WP:P&G: "Guidelines are sets of best practices supported by consensus. Editors should attempt to follow guidelines, though they are best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply." It's not IAR if a rule isn't being ignored. :-)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:17, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure why we have this clause in this guideline, when it can be at odds with MOS:DABREDIR. --Joy (talk) 13:12, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Indeed the only talk page discussion that seems to relate to this that I could find was Wikipedia talk:Hatnote/Archive 2#Redirected links in hatnotes from 14 years ago where people were actually saying we should follow the same guidelines about redirect linking as WP:D. We should replace this vague sentence with a reference to that. --Joy (talk) 13:17, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

This text appears to have been added in this 2015 edit about "four basic rules", and there's no specific discussion about that. I actually found that someone else noticed this in 2016 in Wikipedia talk:Hatnote/Archive 6#Combining hatnotes onto a single line, and there was never an actual followup discussion on that. So, out it goes. --Joy (talk) 13:22, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Instead of the newly-added link to Wikipedia:Disambiguation, there seems to be more relevant guidance on redirects at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Disambiguation pages § Where redirecting may be appropriate—Bagumba (talk) 07:44, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

@Bagumba I think pointing from one guideline to the other makes more sense than to try to short-circuit to the other guideline's manual of style. We generally want whoever is following these instructions to be aware of the entire context. --Joy (talk) 11:02, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

There really isn't much relevant at Wikipedia:Disambiguation w.r.t. redirects and hatnotes. TLDR is the danger. The risk is readers not having the wherewithal to find their way over to the relevant MOS subsection. —Bagumba (talk) 11:14, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

I suppose that could be a risk, but there's a whole section named "Hatnotes", which explains the listed " (disambiguation)" topic and a lot of other stuff. Maybe the real question is why do we split this information in two separate guidelines and a section of the manual of style in the first place :) --Joy (talk) 16:00, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Template:Please note has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. PleaseStand (talk) 23:04, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

I see this over and over again: hatnotes added to sections for no good reason IMO. I just got reverted for removing the hatnote in Thor: Love and Thunder#Documentary special. What possible purpose is served here? The link is in the first sentence of a two-sentence section. It's not particularly hard to find. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:13, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

In this particular case the {{main}} hatnote is not appropriate - not because of the small size of the section, but because the section is not a summary of the hatnote target. Per {{Main}} documentation, replacing the example article and section with this specific case: "For example, in Thor: Love and Thunder, the template under the "Documentary special" section should not be {{Main|Marvel Studios: Assembled}}, because the section specifically deals with The Making of Thor: Love and Thunder as one example of a documentary and not Marvel Studios: Assembled documentaries in general."

{{Further}} is not relevant here, because Marvel Studios: Assembled does not have a section for Thor: Love and Thunder.

Mitch Ames (talk) 03:40, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

"because Marvel Studios: Assembled does not have a section for Thor: Love and Thunder." It may not have a section, although it does have an episode description w/ cast and crew details for it in the episode table. Per WP:BRD, I have restored the WP:STATUSQUO to let the natural discussion process run its course. I have also notified other members of the MCU taskforce at WT:MCU regarding this to gauge the perspectives of other contributors across these articles in question, as we strive to keep them consistent. I honestly did not think this one revert would cause a little stir and warrant such discussion, though I'll WP:AGF (even though sometimes we all need to keep a level head, take no for an answer, and work with each other).

There is no ill-intent with using the hatnote and it is being used to better serve our readers in navigating them to the main article on these documentary specials. If it would better service concerns to title the section header "Marvel Studios: Assembled documentary special", then that could be a form of a compromise, though removing it outright is not the intended goal here. {{See also}} could be a workable replacement, though this seems to be just another case of words being used to convey different meanings when they share the same result of how to better direct and guide our readers across this encyclopedia. Not every reader is expected to read every sentence and some just want to look for the other articles themselves for the details there. Trailblazer101 (talk) 04:02, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

I also want to question where does it specify that hatnotes ought to point to dedicated sections only? {{Main}} states "When a Wikipedia article is large, it is often written in summary style. This template is used after the heading of the summary, to link to the subtopic article that has been summarized. The Assembled article's contents of this film's special are being summarized in the section at the film article and is explained further at the Assembled article in the body and the episode table where the exact special in question is mentioned in detail. {{Further}} supports this usage: "It is typically used at the top of a section, when the topic of that section is covered in more detail by another page." Not all readers are expected to know what Assembled is, hence the brief summar in the section, though the bulk contents of the said special is covered at the Assembled article.

I will note there is also {{Broader}}, which exists (per its documentation): "It is used in sections for which there is also a separate article on the subject. It should be used when there should be a link to another article that discusses a subject more broadly, but is not a main article (which should use {{Main}}), a narrower topic (which should probably use {{Further}}), or at the same level of focus (which should probably use {{See also}})." I believe using Broader in these instances is a workable compromise that best addresses the concerns raised while also maintaining the goals of the taskforce in adequate, proper, and easy navigation for our readers. Trailblazer101 (talk) 04:08, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

It [Marvel Studios: Assembled] may not have a section [for Thor: Love and Thunder], although it does have an episode description w/ cast and crew details for it in the episode table. — in which case the appropriate hatnote would be {{further|Marvel Studios: Assembled#ep12}}. However (similar to Clarityfiend}'s original point) there is already a wiki-link (via redirect The Making of Thor: Love and Thunder) to that target in the text of Thor: Love and Thunder#Documentary special, so the hatnote is someone superfluous in such a small section. Mitch Ames (talk) 06:05, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

{{Broader}} ... in these instances is a workable compromise — {{Broader}} "is used to make summary style explicit", but I don't think that this is an example of "summary style" as described in WP:SUMMARY, which talks about a section of one article summarising another article; what we have here is a section of one article (Thor: Love and Thunder § Documentary special) that overlaps (not summarises, because it contains extra information not in the latter) one row in a table in one section of another article (Marvel Studios: Assembled). Thor: Love and Thunder § Documentary special is a specific instance of Marvel Studios: Assembled - it is not a summary of that article. Mitch Ames (talk) 06:05, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Sounds to me like we just need to clean-up the links for the section: replace the current hatnote with {{further|The Making of Thor: Love and Thunder}} and remove the unnecessary links from the prose considering it is such a small section. - adamstom97 (talk) 06:57, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

replace the current hatnote with {{further|The Making of Thor: Love and Thunder}} and remove the unnecessary links from the prose — What's wrong with "leave the existing wikilink in the prose and remove the unnecessary hatnote" (considering it is such a small section, containing the words "The Making of Thor: Love and Thunder")?

Better still, remove the existing first sentence "In February 2021, the documentary series Marvel Studios: Assembled was announced" because it's irrelevant in this context. Instead reword the section as:

"The Making of Thor: Love and Thunder" – an episode of the Marvel Studios: Assembled series – was released on Disney+ on September 8, 2022, part of Disney+ Day.

No hatnote required because the linked "Making of..." is now literally the first thing in the section. Mitch Ames (talk) 08:31, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

It is expected for short summary sections about a different project that the section starts with a hatnote, I don't see why we should treat this one differently. - adamstom97 (talk) 08:47, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

It is expected for short summary sections about a different project that the section starts with a hatnote — Which policy or guideline says that? Mitch Ames (talk) 10:20, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Clarityfiend and Mitch Ames that a hatnote is superfluous clutter in this case. older ≠ wiser 10:30, 1 April 2024 (UTC)