Wikipedia_talk:Identifying_reliable_sources_(medicine)

Wikipedia talk:Identifying reliable sources (medicine)

Wikipedia talk:Identifying reliable sources (medicine)


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It also discusses a junk article published by Sage Publishing. Doug Weller talk 14:02, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

investigative journalism versus medical research

Hello, I've been looking at a recent significant piece of investigative journalism that talks about health effects that manifested in connection with meditation retreats. Can such reporting be included in Wikipedia? At the Help Desk, I've been advised that the journalistic piece doesn't prove cause and effect. But neither does the story claim to prove cause and effect! It is a reliable source not from a medical standpoint but from a journalistic standpoint. Can you help me make the distinction clearer for readers? Arided (talk) 10:25, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Check out WP:BMI. If health effects are stated or implied, journalism is just about the worst kind of source. Bon courage (talk) 10:28, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
Hi! I'd say that the discussion in major media outlets is itself of interest separate from the actual health effects whatever they may be. Here's an example:

"News media play critical roles in public understandings of health issues. Media presentation of scientific evidence seems to involve the 'facts', which are then discussed and interpreted by various 'experts'. From an ethnomethodological or social constructionist perspective, however, news 'facts' themselves are socially constituted. Examining how health science is reported thus offers important insight into the social construction of health policy problems. We offer an interpretive account of United States newspaper coverage of passive smoking during a time in which several major scientific studies of the issue were conducted and reported upon. We argue that newspaper journalists, through the use of several rhetorical devices, constructed an account of the passive smoking issue in which scientific 'facts' were less important than moral 'facts'. Rather than (or sometimes, in addition to) explicating science, newspaper coverage conveyed a moral narrative highlighting tensions between American cultural values of individual liberty and protection of the public health." — "Science in the News: Journalists' Constructions of Passive Smoking as a Social Problem"

The "minority" opinion that meditation can be harmful for some individuals is well-documented in scientific literature. A case study methodology is also pretty well established in some branches of psychological science. However, the journalistic work I have pointed to does not claim to be any of those things. It's strictly documentary. In a similar way, Whole_(film), for example, isn't saying that amputation is good for you, it's documenting a subculture. Arided (talk) 12:47, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
Furthermore, the page you linked to says "For commercial information, use a source that is reliable for commercial information, such as a newspaper or magazine that specializes in business reporting." That exactly matches the description of the FT. The podcast isn't "medical information" — it is, basically, information about a product or service which isn't offered by the service provider. It happens to be the service is offered by volunteers, but so what? Arided (talk) 12:50, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
@Arided: A podcast by a FT journalist is no substitute for actual medical research. Polygnotus (talk) 13:03, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
Hi Polygnotus: Understood. I don't mean to say that it is a substitute, the point is that such research does not exist and may never exist! If we have a source of reliable (non-medical) information, we might as well use it for what it is. Arided (talk) 13:53, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
@Arided for WP:NOTBMI general journalism, sure, could be useful. But for health, general news sources are unreliable. There are reasons why the WP:PAGs are as they are. Bon courage (talk) 13:24, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
Thanks, that's very much the direction I want to go with this. In particular, the dimension of Beliefs is appropriate to the content of the FT investigation that I'm talking about. "Statements about patients' beliefs regarding a disease or treatment, including religious or spiritual beliefs [and] descriptions of the underlying beliefs of alternative medicines." I could use the various WP:NOTBMI dimensions as a template for my contribution. I have zero desire to concoct a medical argument, and just want to be sure that what I say is not construed as BMI, despite being health-related! Arided (talk) 13:53, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
For sure. We've had issues in the past with editors trying to use 'beliefs' as a run-around to get BMI in, like "Dr Woo believes his Dr Woo branded pills are a powerful cancer cure" but so long as that kind of thing is avoided all shall be well. Bon courage (talk) 13:57, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
Another option is to use that source as a ==Further reading== or ==External links== item. We sometimes do this with a Human-interest story about an individual patient/experience. Humans often remember a narrative better than an orderly recitation of facts, so providing a good (e.g., not spammy, not misleading) story is consistent with our overall educational goal. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:17, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
Hello @WhatamIdoing and @Bon courage, would you be willing to have a look at the article in question and the talk page? I've tried to follow the suggestions you've made above, but the new section has been edited out seconds after I post, so I clearly am setting off red flags for people.
Arided (talk) 15:34, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
I can see why it got reverted. I think without specifics about what sources you had and what text you proposed, it is hard to offer good advice about what might be acceptable. I think WAID's suggestion of Further reading was simply to add a link to the reporting in the Further reading section (there already is such a section in that article). Not to add another section called "Further reading" and tell a story over several paragraphs. Also your references seem to link to exactly the same FT URL each time. A better link that works for me would be Untold: The Retreat — an investigative podcast into the perils of meditation.
There are two aspects to the story you told in the text you added. First is that some people went to the retreats and had a bad experience. This isn't much different I guess to someone going to an adventure holiday or an amusement park and getting injured or having a terrible time. It's a new story and WP:NOTNEWS says not all news stories are encyclopaedic. This is a judgement for editors but it makes it clearer to everyone that this story is WP:DUE if other newspapers are picking up on the FT journalism and talking about it too (independent secondary sources). If it is just a story in the FT then one has to wonder if it is significant. A quick google didn't turn up anything but then the podcast is fairly recent.
The second aspect is the claim "that adverse effects routinely occur even under optimal conditions, with healthy people meditating correctly under supervision" and "the higher the dose, the more likely you’re going to see difficulties". That's a biomedical claim and adverse effects need MEDRS sources just as do supposed positive effects.
If editors on the article agreed the FT story is worth mentioning, then you probably could get a sentence in the "S.N. Goenka" section, saying something like "In January 2024, the Financial Times published a four-part podcast called "The Retreat" which investigated claims of harm due to the intensive meditation promoted at the Goenka network." I see from the talk page you'll have a hard job getting that approved, and one editor there seems to be confusing the youtube/summary pages on the FT with the actual podcast material itself. Whether the special investigations team at the FT are considered a "generally reliable source", I don't personally know. It isn't a newspaper I read. -- Colin°Talk 16:16, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
@Arided, Colin has a lot of good advice here. Go to Vipassana movement#Further reading and see the list. It's just a list of sources. There are no sentences or paragraphs. It's possible that just adding the source to this list – plain; without any explanation; just the citation itself, including a URL – would be accepted. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:29, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
Sorry for any confusion, but the entire "Further Reading" section was newly added by myself. This is the content that is being reverted! (≈308 words, 2,086 characters). Arided (talk) 18:59, 18 February 2024 (UTC) Oh, wait, I see, there was a previous "Further Reading" section, got it. Arided (talk) 19:01, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
I've gone with the one-sentence summary under S. N. Goenka for now. Arided (talk) 19:24, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
Okay. Let's see what happens next.
BTW, when you added your section, the article ended up with two of them – yours, and another nearly at the end of the page, after the ==References== section. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Simply bad

Bendegúz Ács asked a little while ago for more information about the sentence that "A source can also simply be bad, where biases in criteria make it less than ideal." Here's a short explanation, in case anyone's interested:

We have criteria that help editors identify sources that are generally better (e.g., peer-reviewed sources, secondary sources, recent sources). However, no single criterion definitely makes a source be good (WP:NOTGOODSOURCE). In addition to all the criteria, you have to use common sense and have a good understanding of the subject. Sometimes a source seems superficially good, but when you read it, you discover that it's just bad. In such cases, you should use your WP:Editorial discretion to avoid relying on a bad source.

Here are some simple examples of how real-world bias could lead an editor to decide that a source is just bad:

  • The subject is a disease that's very common in poor countries, but your source tells you about the disease in a wealthy country.
  • You need to write something about pregnancy, and the clinical trial involves only males. (That's how the world ended up with the Thalidomide scandal, by the way.)
  • The subject is pediatrics, and the data is all from elderly people.

The main reason that we don't explain is because the potential sources of bias are enormous. Editors who are uncertain about whether their source can support the claims they are making should be discussing the specifics on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:41, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification and the examples, they definitely make this particular issue much easier for me to understand. However, I would still like to suggest some improvements to the sentence. I think here there are two separate potential issues that may make a source bad, and both are worth mentioning separately.
One is what your examples are about, and I would call this something along the lines of "subjects/subgroup analysis with low relevancy" or "irrelevant/overly restrictive subjects/subgroup analysis", since the main issue I can identify in your examples is that the source fails to take into account most of the people affected by the topic. I think this particular issue would be worth mentioning in a separate sentence because it does seem important.
The other one is about problems that are so particular about a study that it is not possible to easily fit into any well-defined criterion. I would not limit these problems to "biases", however, since not every problem possible to make a study bad is considered a bias. So maybe mentioning it in this way would be an improvement: "A source can also simply be bad, due to a bias, or other problem, too particular to be covered by a common editorial criterion. In cases like this, WP:Editorial discretion may be used."
What do you think? Bendegúz Ács (talk) 23:30, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
It might be better to re-write the whole sub-section from scratch. I think it is meant to cover things like pesticide manufacturers claiming that their products are utterly harmless. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:55, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
I would support a rewrite, but I am not competent enough to come up with a suggestion for a complete new text for the sub-section. I would be happy to review it, though. Bendegúz Ács (talk) 15:01, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
I've considered just blanking it. Do we truly need WP:MEDBIAS, or is it WP:CREEPY and redundant with other pages? It's only been linked in discussions about a handful of articles.
@Bon courage, what do you think? Could we live without it? WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:11, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
Hah! Have never paid any attention to this. It arrived in 2016. WP:DONTSHOUTBIAS eh!? Bon courage (talk) 07:26, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
Oh, that would have been around the time that we tried (and failed) to put a medicine-specific version of WP:DUE in this guideline. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:58, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
I don't see anything there that needs to be (medicine) specific and the "Personal conflicts of interest" isn't about "reliable sources" either. I'd vote for blanking both. The concerns there about biased sources or biased editors belong in general guidelines. -- Colin°Talk 08:55, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

There is a new discussion at RSN that MEDRS-interested editors may want to get involved in: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#MEDRS_sources_on_curcumin_supplementation Schazjmd (talk) 23:53, 25 February 2024 (UTC)


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