Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion_no_portals

Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion no portals

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WP:MFD

Please do not nominate your user page (or subpages of it) for deletion here. Instead, add {{db-userreq}} at the top of any such page you no longer wish to keep; an administrator will then delete the page. See Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion for more information.

Miscellany for deletion (MfD) is a place where Wikipedians decide what should be done with problematic pages in the namespaces which aren't covered by other specialized deletion discussion areas. Items sent here are usually discussed for seven days; then they are either deleted by an administrator or kept, based on community consensus as evident from the discussion, consistent with policy, and with careful judgment of the rough consensus if required.

Filtered versions of the page are available at

Information on the process

What may be nominated for deletion here:

Pages not covered by other XFD venues, including pages in these namespaces: Draft:, Help:, Portal:, MediaWiki:, Wikipedia: (including WikiProjects), User:, TimedText: and the various Talk: namespaces
Userboxes (regardless of namespace)
Pages in the File namespace that have a local description page but no local file (if there is a local file, Wikipedia:Files for discussion is the right venue)
Any other page, that is not in article space, where there is dispute as to the correct XfD venue.

Requests to undelete pages deleted after discussion here, and debate whether discussions here have been properly closed, both take place at Wikipedia:Deletion review, in accordance with Wikipedia's undeletion policy.

Before nominating a page for deletion

Before nominating a page for deletion, please consider these guidelines:

Deleting pages in your own userspace	If you want to have your own userpage or a draft you created deleted, there is no need to list it here; simply tag it with {{db-userreq}} or {{db-u1}}. If you wish to clear your user talk page or sandbox, just blank it.
Duplications in draftspace?	Duplications in draftspace are usually satisfactorily fixed by redirection. If the material is in mainspace, redirect the draft to the article, or a section of the article. If multiple draft pages on the same topic have been created, tag them for merging. See WP:SRE.
Deleting pages in other people's userspace	Consider explaining your concerns on the user's talk page with a personal note or by adding `{{subst:Uw-userpage}} ~~~~` to their talk page. This step assumes good faith and civility; often the user is simply unaware of the guidelines, and the page can either be fixed or speedily deleted using {{db-userreq}}. Take care not to bite newcomers – sometimes using the {{subst:welcome}} or {{subst:welcomeg}} template and a pointer to WP:UP would be best first. Problematic userspace material is often addressed by the User pages guidelines including in some cases removal by any user or tagging to clarify the content or to prevent external search engine indexing. (Examples include copies of old, deleted, or disputed material, problematic drafts, promotional material, offensive material, inappropriate links, 'spoofing' of the MediaWiki interface, disruptive HTML, invitations or advocacy of disruption, certain kinds of images and image galleries, etc) If your concern relates to these areas consider these approaches as well, or instead of, deletion. User pages about Wikipedia-related matters by established users usually do not qualify for deletion. Articles that were recently deleted at AfD and then moved to userspace are generally not deleted unless they have lingered in userspace for an extended period of time without improvement to address the concerns that resulted in their deletion at AfD, or their content otherwise violates a global content policy such as our policies on Biographies of living persons that applies to any namespace.
Policies, guidelines and process pages	Established pages and their sub-pages should not be nominated, as such nominations will probably be considered disruptive, and the ensuing discussions closed early. This is not a forum for modifying or revoking policy. Instead consider tagging the policy as {{historical}} or redirecting it somewhere. Proposals still under discussion generally should not be nominated. If you oppose a proposal, discuss it on the policy page's discussion page. Consider being bold and improving the proposal. Modify the proposal so that it gains consensus. Also note that even if a policy fails to gain consensus, it is often useful to retain it as a historical record, for the benefit of future editors.
WikiProjects and their subpages	It is generally preferable that inactive WikiProjects not be deleted, but instead be marked as {{WikiProject status\|inactive}}, redirected to a relevant WikiProject, or changed to a task force of a parent WikiProject, unless the WikiProject was incompletely created or is entirely undesirable. WikiProjects that were never very active and which do not have substantial historical discussions (meaning multiple discussions over an extended period of time) on the project talk page should not be tagged as {{historical}}; reserve this tag for historically active projects that have, over time, been replaced by other processes or that contain substantial discussion (as defined above) of the organization of a significant area of Wikipedia. Before deletion of an inactive project with a founder or other formerly active members who are active elsewhere on Wikipedia, consider userfication. Notify the main WikiProject talk page when nominating any WikiProject subpage, in addition to standard notification of the page creator.
Alternatives to deletion	Normal editing that doesn't require the use of any administrator tools, such as merging the page into another page or renaming it, can often resolve problems. Pages in the wrong namespace (e.g. an article in Wikipedia namespace), can simply be moved and then tag the redirect for speedy deletion using {{db-g6\|rationale= it's a redirect left after a cross-namespace move}}. Notify the author of the original article of the cross-namespace move.
Alternatives to MfD	Speedy deletion If the page clearly satisfies a "general" or "user" speedy deletion criterion, tag it with the appropriate template. Be sure to read the entire criterion, as some do not apply in the user space.

How to list pages for deletion

Shortcut

WP:MFDHOWTO

Please check the aforementioned list of deletion discussion areas to check that you are in the right area. Then follow these instructions:

More information Instructions on listing pages for deletion: ...

Instructions on listing pages for deletion:

To list a page for deletion, follow this three-step process: (replace PageName with the name of the page, including its namespace, to be deleted)

Note: Users must be logged in to complete step II. An unregistered user who wishes to nominate a page for deletion should complete step I and post their reasoning on Wikipedia talk:Miscellany for deletion with a notification to a registered user to complete the process.

I.

Edit PageName:

Enter the following text at the top of the page you are listing for deletion:

{{mfd|1={{subst:FULLPAGENAME}}}}
for a second or subsequent nomination use {{mfdx|2nd}}

or

{{mfd|GroupName}}
if nominating several similar related pages in an umbrella nomination. Choose a suitable name as GroupName and use it on each page.

If the nomination is for a userbox or similarly transcluded page, use {{subst:mfd-inline}} so as to not mess up the formatting for the userbox.

Use {{subst:mfd-inline|GroupName}} for a group nomination of several related userboxes or similarly transcluded pages.

Please include in the edit summary the phrase
Added MfD nomination at [[Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/PageName]]
replace PageName with the name of the page that is up for deletion.
Please don't mark your edit summary as a minor edit.
Check the "Watch this page" box if you would like to follow the page in your watchlist. This may help you to notice if your MfD tag is removed by someone.
Save the page

II.

Create its MfD subpage.

The resulting MfD box at the top of the page should contain the link "this page's entry"

Click that link to open the page's deletion discussion page.
Insert this text:

{{subst:mfd2| pg={{subst:#titleparts:{{subst:PAGENAME}}||2}}| text=Reason why the page should be deleted}} ~~~~
replacing Reason... with your reasons why the page should be deleted and sign the page. Do not substitute the pagename, as this will occur automatically.

Consider checking "Watch this page" to follow the progress of the debate.
Please use an edit summary such as Creating deletion discussion page for [[PageName]]
replacing PageName with the name of the page you are proposing for deletion.
Save the page.

III.

Add a line to MfD.

Follow this edit link and at the top of the list add a line:

{{subst:mfd3| pg=PageName}}
Put the page's name in place of "PageName".

Include the discussion page's name in your edit summary like
Added [[Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/PageName]]
replacing PageName with the name of the page you are proposing for deletion.
Save the page.
If nominating a page that has been nominated before, use the page's name in place of "PageName" and add

{{priorxfd|PageName}}
in the nominated page deletion discussion area to link to the previous discussions and then save the page using an edit summary such as
Added [[Template:priorxfd]] to link to prior discussions.

If nominating a page from someone else's userspace, notify them on their main talk page.
For other pages, while not required, it is generally considered civil to notify the good-faith creator and any main contributors of the miscellany that you are nominating. To find the main contributors, look in the page history or talk page of the page and/or use TDS' Article Contribution Counter or Wikipedia Page History Statistics. For your convenience, you may add
{{subst:mfd notice|PageName}} ~~~~
to their talk page in the "edit source" section, replacing PageName with the pagename. Please use an edit summary such as
Notice of deletion discussion at [[Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/PageName]]
replacing PageName with the name of the nomination page you are proposing for deletion.
If the user has not edited in a while, consider sending the user an email to notify them about the MfD if the MfD concerns their user pages.
If you are nominating a WikiProject, please post a notice at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Council, in addition to the project's talk page and the talk pages of the founder and active members.

Current discussions

Pages currently being considered for deletion are indexed by the day on which they were first listed. Please place new listings at the top of the section for the current day. If no section for the current day is present, please start a new section.

April 30, 2024

April 29, 2024

Draft:Pact Coffee

This draft appears to be an unambiguous advertisement. Samoht27 (talk) 16:33, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Delete - Probably could be G11, but we are here. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:11, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Keep: Has good looking referencing (though on examination they look nonindependent). It definitely is not g11-eligible. It is written up like a fair Wikipedia article. It merely fails WP:N. This is not a reason to delete from draftspace, and never should be. Advise the proponent to use WP:SIRS, and that two or three sources need to meet the WP:GNG, and if two or three do not, no number of additional worse sources will do. But, MfD is not the forum for this. SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:21, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
It looks very promotional to me with lines such as "Customers receive freshly roasted coffee from Pact's roastery in Haslemere, Surrey, with delivery promised within seven days of roasting as part of its commitment to freshness." Draftspace should not be a permanent repository for unacceptable content. AusLondonder (talk) 23:35, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Luckily for you, its not permanent. Curbon7 (talk) 03:11, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

G11 is not for things that could be fixed, like a promotional tone.

Your concern is taken care of by the implementation of WP:G13. SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:26, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
What if it's not abandoned? AusLondonder (talk) 07:18, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Then it stays. Short of it being tendentiously submitted, or submitted after rejection, draftspace is for people to try to improve drafts for as long as they choose. SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:21, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Weak keep: If this had no sources, it would probably be a delete. With the sources, I think it's just enough to meet the minimum of being a suitable draft. Curbon7 (talk) 03:20, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Delete The draft has been submitted and ~~rejected~~ declined four times, it's clearly unsuitable. Per this RfC, the community consensus is inappropriate drafts repeatedly submitted may be deleted by MfD. The language used in the draft, such as "Customers receive freshly roasted coffee from Pact's roastery in Haslemere, Surrey, with delivery promised within seven days of roasting as part of its commitment to freshness" is unencyclopedic and promotional. Simply keeping an inappropriate draft in hope it will eventually be abandoned so it can then be deleted makes no sense. AusLondonder (talk) 07:24, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
If you have a problem with specific sentences, just delete those sentences; no need to blow the whole thing up. 4 declines but with improvement in between is not tendentious, it is a new editor not really knowing how we write on here but trying their best. Curbon7 (talk) 07:29, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Not sure why you're so passionate about this after your "weak keep". "A new editor not really knowing how we write on here but trying their best" is not the way I'd describe a paid contributor. AusLondonder (talk) 08:22, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
That is actually exactly how I'd describe a *disclosed* paid contributor. Curbon7 (talk) 08:32, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
I firmly disagree. I don't believe Wikipedia is the place for paid advertorials about non-notable companies rejected at AfC four times. I'm surprised you do, but we'll have to agree to disagree. AusLondonder (talk) 08:36, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
I'll leave it at this. At AfC, we get a lot of slop; practically every third draft submission is WP:UPE garbage, and there is usually no improvement between instantaneous resubmissions. So it is refreshing to see a draft like this where the creator is actively improving the draft after each decline (), and where the draft has actual sourcing. Even the sentence you cite above has already been cleaned (). As a draft, it doesn't have to be notable and doesn't have to be accept-worthy, it just has to not cross the line into requiring early deletion. And while I do share your detestment for paid editing - I find it contrary to the entire point of this website - it is currently allowed if they are transparent and disclose properly. Curbon7 (talk) 09:12, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

User:AusLondonder, I see no rejects. Reject is different to decline. Declines imply that it can be improved to become good enough. SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:23, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Changing stance to Keep, I know I nominated this for deletion, but as i've become a bit more accustomed to draft space, i've become more accustomed to its very loose requirements, one could likely just let the draft run its course if it is not improved. Samoht27 (talk) 16:27, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Comment - I took a look and even if this were cleaned up for promotional tone, it does not meet notability guidelines. The references fail WP:ORGCRIT and I cannot see this surviving an AfD discussion should it go that route from the main space. I would actually reject it as a reviewer. Nothing wrong with keeping it in draft space but a WP:BEFORE shows there isn't anything available that can improve the notability. --CNMall41 (talk) 21:11, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Drafts are not checked for notability or sanity, so for MfD purposes it doesn't matter if it is notable or not. Curbon7 (talk) 01:21, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

April 28, 2024

Talk:Blackpink/GA1

Delete to make space for a proper GA review. It seems like one of the editors has blanked the page so it's most likely that they also want it to be deleted. Okmrman (talk) 05:05, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Delete as per rationale. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 05:13, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Delete The Sydney Morning Herald 05:28, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
user:750h+, your signature is not ok. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:24, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Oh, I’m sorry. I’ve changed it to my normal name, hope that’s better. 750 h+ 15:05, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Keep: This is talk page history and should never be deleted. SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:20, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Comment It would be relatively trivial to simply overwrite the existing content with a new review without needing to delete anything, and even if that is disfavored for some reason, there is no shortage of space and therefore no need to "make room" for anything as new pages may always be created. Looking at the prefix index these are sometimes deleted and sometimes retained though judging from a cursory review many of the deletions were actually WP:G7s done after the MFD was started. 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:49B:2883:34FC:225B (talk) 13:37, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Keep: Keep the first review archived, and write a new review at Talk:Blackpink/GA2. The first one was closed with a reason that is not valid, yes, but it's not vandalism either. Cambalachero (talk) 16:17, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Comment: typical practice at GAN is that if a reviewer opens a page without beginning the actual review and then withdraws but can't be bothered to add a G7 (or simply disappears), we will delete the page at G6 because nothing has actually happened. In this case, there was an actual review failure by a second reviewer (if an out-of-process one). BlueMoonset (talk) 17:43, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Keep as 750h+ closed the review, and thus it should not be deleted. It really should have been G6'd before, but whatever. change to delete per CMD's rationale. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:56, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
User:AirshipJungleman29 it should not have been G6'd before as that would be an abuse of WP:G6. See for example Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Talk:Sarah Cooper/GA1 which rejected that line of reasoning, if a type of page is sometimes retained at XFD discussions then speedy is not appropriate; see also Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Talk:British Rail Class 700/GA1 and Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Talk:Clique (song)/GA1. If it is believed desirable that these pages be eligible for WP:CSD then a new one should be created following discussion at WT:CSD, but as is these clearly fall under WP:!G6. Unless that happens other solutions such as moving, blanking, or simply requesting G7s from the creator should be used. 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:287D:BFB4:5CC3:6570 (talk) 00:47, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- - The reviews you cite were all closed. G6 is for uncontroversial maintenance, of which this is an example, which is why it is explicitly suggested at WP:GAN/I#N4a. It is uncontroversial because of many years of discussions at WT:GAN, and if you look through my CSD log you will find numerous examples of such nominations being accepted. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 02:27, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
    User:AirshipJungleman29 that is irrelevant, WikiProjects do not make policy or have any special power over content. WP:CSD is policy, nowhere does WP:G6 authorze the deltion of those pages, and note that the page listed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Talk:Sarah Cooper/GA1 had only one author and was not closed as you claim, nor was the second MFD I cited closed when listed at MFD ; the fact that certain bad speedy deletions are made does not justify making others, I would know since I have gotten multiple speedies overturned by listing them at DRV. You don't have to take my word for it, go inquire at WT:CSD and people there will tell you the same. 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:E171:7509:BE8D:6BD5 (talk) 04:47, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
    Of course G6 authorises the deletion of that content—what else does "uncontroversial maintenance" mean? If you think it means "only the examples listed below", you may wish to look up the meaning of "including". ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 07:19, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
    It’s common G6 misuse and is not ok. SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:44, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
    No, it's precisely what G6 is for. If you want to alter G6 to read "This is for the following situations only:" you are free to propose a change; until then, it will be continued to be used for uncontroversial maintenance. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 08:29, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
    Deleting someone else’s contributions is never uncontroversial. It is also not maintenance, but laziness. SmokeyJoe (talk) 14:17, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
    
    This line of reasoning is self-defeating, the very fact people are disputing this in this very thread means its clearly not uncontroversial, and WP:!G6 is directly linked at WP:G6. But tell you what if you really think it is uncontroversial go ahead and add this use case under WP:G6 if you are reverted, and I promise not to be the one that does so, then I think you will have your answer, or you can save everyone some time and just ask directly at WT:CSD. 2601:5CC:8300:A7F0:BDD8:5E1C:3E77:A8E6 (talk) 21:45, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
    "uncontroversial" means that there is no viable argument opposing it. The page is not "talk page history", and "I don't like the facts that "including" is vague and WP:!G6 is an essay" is not a viable argument. If SmokeyJoe really believes that "Deleting someone else’s contributions is never uncontroversial.", they should apply to remove all CSD criteria apart from G7 and U1. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:15, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
    
    I feel like it is appropriate to chime in here on G6: "uncontroversial" means there is no meaningful controversy. It doesn't become controversial if one person, at some point in the history of the world, mentions somewhere on Wikipedia that they don't like deleting a page.
    
    GA reviews exist for the purpose of facilitating the GA process. The GA process is administered and coordinated by the people who run it. This shouldn't be that complicated: if they think it's pointless, what point is there in asking what the whole village thinks? jp×g 🗯️ 10:36, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
  if a type of page is sometimes retained at XFD discussions then speedy is not appropriate -- this is preposterous. The outcomes of deletion discussions are heavily influenced by random noise, so low participation can mean that a MfD closes with no consensus after a single person comments to keep. A single heckler's veto on a single nomination should not not create a permanent months-long obstacle to carrying out all basic maintenance tasks on "a type of page"... jp×g 🗯️ 10:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Delete The Sydney Morning Herald/750+ went out of process on the third edit by speedying this without a valid CSD rationale, but that is not a reason to keep it around. There are no substantive edits pre-deletion discussion. The only potentially substantive edits since then were to try and remove the page another way and a note this was inappropriate, both by editors who have commented here and have indicated delete or that it should have been deleted. This is not part of the talkpage history, just an autogenerated page. Keeping it just creates a permanent record of mistakes by two newer users for no benefit to anyone. CMD (talk) 08:02, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Records of mistakes are important records. It can be archived. SmokeyJoe (talk) 14:15, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Neither the one user clicking the start review button nor the second user adding a speedy delete tag are important records. CMD (talk) 01:05, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
User mistakes are records. User mistakes are evidence of processes that could use improvement.

Speedy deletions must be objective, and “the history is not important” is not an objective criterion. It can be archived. Processes that archive mistakes don’t add to the burden/dependence on administrators. SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:35, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
This is a general MfD discussion, not a discussion to speedy the article. At any rate, there are plenty of CSDs for deleting mistakes. CMD (talk) 05:28, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Yeah sorry, the G6 assertion is the thread above. SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:18, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Keep - No harm is done by keeping, and either overwriting, which leaves the history, or creating GA2. Minimal harm is done by deletion. Primum non nocere. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:14, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Overwriting does not work technically, as GA statistics are collected based on page creation. A minor harm in the scale of things, but more than deleting a procedurally generated page. CMD (talk) 01:04, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Delete, no use archiving this, and it makes the GA-related paperwork easier and more useful than fail+renominate. —Kusma (talk) 06:05, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Delete, with great prejudice. This is a GA review page; the reason it exists is to serve the GA process. The GA process is administered and coordinated by the people who work at GAN/GAR/etc. These people are why the process functions at all, and without them, it would not. So if they say that a page needs to be deleted in order for their processes to work correctly: first of all, why in tarnation would we know better than them? Second of all, even if we do, there is a tradeoff to be made here, and we must consider the options. On one hand, there is the bureaucratic and archival issue of what is gained from maintaining the historical record (in the form of a page history) that someone started a GA review and then it didn't happen. On the other hand, there is the fact that forcing this page to stay around seems to create a huge pain in the ass for all the GA people, and forces them to work around a stupid edge-case that violates the typical expectations for how GA review pages are supposed to work. I say that they do not need to be forced to deal with bureaucratic gobbledygook for the sheer thrill of it, simple because we derive jouissance from following rules to the letter. jp×g 🗯️ 10:44, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:No queerphobes

It's a political screed coatracking as an essay. People are free to believe what they will as long as they do not act in a manner that is disruptive. The "No (fill in whichever group or set of beliefs you want banned)" essays are getting out of hand. Trying to elevate social conservatives and gender critical beliefs to the same level as Nazism is an abuse of WP:ESSAYS and also of WP:NOTADVOCACY and WP:NOTFORUM. It smacks of an attempt to turn Wikipedia into an ideological echo chamber. We need to draw a line somewhere and this seems like a good place to start. Ad Orientem (talk) 01:24, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Redirect to Wikipedia:Hate is disruptive - We don't need an essay for every specific form of hate speech. - ZLEA _T\^C 01:50, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Redirect to Wikipedia:Hate is disruptive All queer people should feel welcome to edit here. My own brother is queer, but we are both on the same page on this topic. However, this does not mean we have to indef everyone who does not agree with all of the LGBT community's demands. I know I am not. Scorpions1325 (talk) 02:04, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
I'm not sure where you got indef everyone who does not agree with all of the LGBT community's demands. The essay does not imply such an extreme statement, let alone enforce it. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 21:22, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Delete: We already have Wikipedia:No personal attacks. If we start adding "no personal attacks on X group" specific pages, we would be here all day. Cambalachero (talk) 04:19, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
We have literally thousands of essays. They are created by many different editors. It doesn't require any of us to be here all day. AusLondonder (talk) 10:57, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Move to the main author's user space, then redirect the WP title (and the various other WP shortcuts that have already been put in place) to WP:Hate is disruptive. I don't think this would be a problem as a user space essay, reflecting one editor's (or one group of editors') views on the subject. I do not think that it has been through the level of community scrutiny and consensus building that would warrant a WP: namespace title. Girth Summit _(blether) 08:41, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
@Girth Summit what level of community scrutiny/consensus building is necessary? This is my first wikipedia essay so I'm not sure where I'm supposed to head to notify people of it and gain broader consensus lol. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 16:57, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
I don't understand what (if anything) is implied by the 'lol' at the end of your question. From WP:ESSAY: Essays may be moved into userspace as user essays (see below), or even deleted, if they are found to be problematic. This discussion will establish whether or not the essay is problematic; I am proposing the first option as an alternative to the second, if that is indeed found to be the case. Girth Summit _(blether) 17:08, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Zillenial texting habits sorry - in this case the lol was meant to convey conviviality and gently acknowledge my own confusion. Gotcha, I'd thought I missed something and was supposed to take it to an essay wikiproject or something - I now get from your comment and the essay essay that it's presumed non-problematic until an MFD shows otherwise. Personally, the reason I didn't want to have it as a userspace essay is because I want it to truly be a community essay and gain that level of consensus - I want it to be open for everyone to edit rather than presumed mine. Best, Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 17:33, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

@Girth Summit: I don't think that essays in the Wikipedia namespace are expected to have any consensus behind them, see Wikipedia:Essays#Wikipedia namespace essays. Anecdotally, deciding whether to put an essay in userspace or projectspace is more a question of intent: do you imagine others editing it and it gaining consensus one day? Or is it purely an expression of your own opinion? – Joe (talk) 06:37, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Worth noting that WP:ESSAYS is itself an essay; meta. I'm not aware of any actual policy or guideline that covers this. ESSAY is rather vague in what it suggests - it does indeed say that anyone can write an essay in project space, but then it goes on to say that they can be moved to userspace or deleted 'if they are found to be problematic', and it specifically recommends MfD as a venue to determine that, so here we are. Girth Summit _(blether) 07:11, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Liz makes a similar observation below. I suppose it's another one of those troublesome unwritten rules. But you can also look to the text of {{Essay}}, which explicitly applies to both namespaces and describes them as the advice or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors or the sheer number of pages in Category:Wikipedia essays, for evidence that the community has historically not seen consensus as a prerequisite for putting something in projectspace.

We can of course discuss whether there are problematic aspects of this essay that would justify it being moved (and are), I just don't think a lack of "community scrutiny and consensus building" is sufficient reason in itself. – Joe (talk) 07:37, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
The template says what it says, I can't argue with that. I can remember reading, and possibly taking part in, a discussion similar to this in the dim and distant past from which I drew the impression that some degree of wider community scrutiny is desirable in project space essays. Wish I could remember where that was and what it was - if only we knew what we know. Let me put it a slightly different way then: I'm not confident that this essay is going to do anything positive, and I think it risks doing something negative. It's not going to help us to identify and block trolls, vandals or harassers, but I fear that it's going to further alienate a certain sector of our editorship. It's a whack, or perhaps just a gentle tap, from the mallet onto a wedge that is driving people apart. Girth Summit _(blether) 08:40, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Delete per Ad Orientem Sweet6970 (talk) 15:05, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Delete per Ad Orientem Okmrman (talk) 16:06, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Keep a political screed is an insult without justification. If you don't like the essay, you can suggest improvements, be bold and make them, or write why you don't endorse it.

We currently have 4 other essays in this vein. WP:HATEISDISRUPTIVE is about bigotry in general, yet we also have WP:No racists (which I don't see anybody saying should redirect there), and then we have WP:NONAZIS and WP:No Confederates about specific kinds of racists (and I see nobody clamoring for a redirect there). 3 essays on racism, yet none on queerphobia... Interestingly, WP:NONAZIS was nominated for deletion in 2019 and 2023 for the same vague charges of advocacy and foruming.

Trying to elevate social conservatives and gender critical beliefs to the same level as Nazism where does it do this? NONAZIS was the first essay of this sort written, but we also have WP:No racists. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 16:55, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

A discussion about whether all of these separate pages are worth retaining would probably be worth having. NONAZIS is by far the oldest, and I'd guess is also by far the most well-known and oft-cited. TonyBallioni moved WP:NORACISTS from another user's userspace into project space in 2021 for reasons that he's probably forgotten, but I'd be interested to hear whether he thinks it's still serving any purpose (I suspect it's not). I hadn't seen WP:No Confederates, but it came only slightly after WP:HATEISDISRUPTIVE, which (sensibly, in my view) attempts to discuss the wider theme. It might be the case (I don't have a firm view on this) that all of these independent essays ought to be merged into HATEISDISRUPTIVE; certainly, I tend to feel that we do not need these 'WP:No...' essays to proliferate. Girth Summit _(blether) 17:22, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

I quite like HATEISDISRUPTIVE which is why I cite it in the essay, my only qualm with it is that it leans more philosophical than practical - essays like no queerphobes/confederates/racists/nazis mean the community has some centralized points where we lay out what's inappropriate, the relevant historical context, and related policies and procedures so we can have shared working definitions of what is meant by hate. Personally, I wrote the essay partly due to being sick of years of people consistently writing in discussions (or even wikivoice) that "gender ideology" is real, that trans kids are actually just mentally ill cis kids indoctrinated to think they're trans, or that all trans women who aren't straight are fetishists, or whatever else - mostly without repercussions as long as they stop short of actual slurs (and from my discussions with other queer editors over the years, I'm far from the only one who's sick of it). I think regardless of the merits of merging them all into hate is disruptive (to which I can certainly see benefits), I doubt it'd gain traction with the community. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 17:51, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Comment: I have notified the LGBT noticeboard of this move discussion. Pinging those who've discussed/edited the essay: other significant contributors to the essay (@LokiTheLiar, @RoxySaunders, and @Raladic), those who have weighed in on the talk page (@Sundostund, @Queen of Hearts, and @Hob Gadling), and @NatGertler who weighed in at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies#Wikipedia:No Queerphobes. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 17:22, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
This appears to be coming very close to WP:CANVASSING. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:32, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
It's not canvassing to notify people who would be affected by a decision. If this was on the talk page of WP:NOQUEERPHOBES, this would be an obviously appropriate notification. Loki (talk) 17:34, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Ummm, please do not insult my intelligence. This was calling in the cavalry. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:47, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
The only people I notified where those who discussed/edited the essay who didn't comment here. I'd like to note I pinged people who opposed the essay as well. Many I pinged had issues with the essay they noted or boldly fixed rather than go straight to MFD. This is not WP:CANVASSING by any stretch of the imagination. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 17:57, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Now that discussion has reopened, I can note that it looks like YFNS followed WP:APPNOTE in terms of who was contacted; the only variation from that was the use of pinging rather than posting on their user talk pages. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 19:03, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Nobody is "insulting your intelligence", we're pointing out policy. No comment on keeping yet, as I haven't read the article thoroughly enough for that. That said, and as others have mentioned at length here, there's plenty of precedent for keeping them around, and if you think they're getting out of hand, it's probably better to tackle them all at once rather than singling out the most recent one, the latter of which being almost guaranteed to end in a no consensus close at best. --Licks-rocks (talk) 22:23, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Obvious Keep. No real argument has been made for deletion of this essay. The standards for keeping an essay are extremely low: just that it doesn't contradict widespread wiki consensus. As long as that's not the case, any random editor's opinion can be a mainspace essay. Indeed, this is not even just one editor's opinion, as several editors have endorsed it on its talk page. This is a prime example of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Loki (talk) 17:28, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Nomination withdrawn and request procedural close Naked canvassing has likely compromised the discussion irretrievably. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:50, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Note: the discussion was closed at this point, and then re-opened. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 16:26, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Ad Orientem, I'd urge you to let the discussion run it's course. I don't see this as improper canvassing - these people were all already discussing the essay on its talk page, it's only fair for them to be notified of this discussion. Non-endorsers were pinged as well as endorsers. As for the Wikiproject, there was an active-ish discussion on the project talk page about it (which is how I first came to know of the essay), so again it's probably within the bounds of acceptable notification. Let's not make this an us and then situation, let's see if we can actually come to a consensus on whether pages like this server any useful purpose, or if they just serve to divide otherwise productive editors who ought to be working towards the same goal. Girth Summit _(blether) 18:15, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
How is notifying good faith contributions "naked canvassing"? I'm really at a loss to understand that argument. Please see WP:APPNOTE. AusLondonder (talk) 10:59, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 1

~~Move~~ to Wikipedia:No Queerphobia. The essay, like all things on Wikipedia, is subject to change, and I think there is space here to do the core of what it is to do... or at least as I see its best possible function: to give specific examples of how a queerphobic editor might be editing that goes against what is covered at WP:HATEISDISRUPTIVE. While anti-queer belief is sadly not fringe at this point in time, and while we certainly can't be simply banning edits that support views that do no serve queer-supportive goals, but there are things that editors do that target queer editors and queer topics that have some unique methods and textures. Having a page that specifically points to things like discussing an editor specifically using pronouns that are not their preferred pronouns, or claiming that someone has a COI on LGBTQIA topics simply by identifying themselves with one of those letters, is of use. My support for a move is based on the idea that we should not (and, practically, cannot) say that people who are against gay equality or any such things are not allowed to edit here, just that they cannot be disruptively showing their hate. (Same argument would go for similar essays.) The essay-creating editor has been very open to input. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 18:27, 28 April 2024 (UTC) Switched !vote to Keep -- while addressing what I thought that the essay should ideally be, for now the author's essay should be kept with her intent intact. Repositioning it should be a matter of discussion on the article talk page. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 17:57, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Keep - The essay outlines and espands on WP:Hate is disruptive with clearer examples of what kind of hate speech is directed towards the queer community and regularly articles involving LGBTQIA+ topics, which is why we have specific arbritation enforcements such as WP:GENSEX that became neccesary precicely because of the queerphobia that drives many vandals to wikipedia, which are often banned and even regularly requires WP:Revdel. It is also improper to say that informing relevant wikiprojects would be canvassing, as that is regular procedure in any deletion discussion and as was already pointed out above, both endorsers and non-endorsers of the essay were informed. It is also inappropriate to equate queerphobia to be a political opinion and use this as the argument for deletion of the essay. Since the OP also brought up that saying that queerphobia doesn't rise to the same level as WP:No Nazis - Nazis did in fact have queerphobic beliefs and various members of the queer community were perspecuted by them, as outlined in Persecution of homosexuals in Nazi Germany and Transgender people in Nazi Germany. But also, using it as an argument of why other essays are more valid, but this one isn't, is just saying that some marginalization is more important than others, which is a fallacy as per the Oppression Olympics. Hate speech, no matter in what form does not have a place on Wikipedia. While editors are free to have their beliefs. If such beliefs run afoul of Wikipedias policies and lead to WP:DISRUPTIVE editing, then having an essay outlining some of the relevant policies that apply to this sub-topic is valuable to the community. Per WP:POLICIES, Essays are the opinion or advice of an editor or group of editors for which widespread consensus has not been established. They do not speak for the entire community and may be created and written without approval. - they are not subject to the same scrutiny as mainspace articles and do not represent all editors views, but as has already been proven by multiple people having endorsed the essay, it clearly does represent the view and consensus of some editors on Wikipedia. One last point I'd like to make is that this essay captures some of the essence of the disruption that LGBTQIA+ topics and editors often experience, which is why we even have a mainspace article on LGBT and Wikipedia as this kind of disruptive editing has even brought large attention of reliable source media on multiple occasions. It is most certainly not just a coatrack, but very much a valuable essay on itself as the topic of LGBTQ coverage and the harassment that users trying to improve its content do have to regularly experience as the article in the NY Times from 2019 has summarized quite well. Raladic (talk) 19:26, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Delete as we already have the tools necessary to deal with DE and PAs; this 'essay' is just an attempt to make a particular issue a more substantial one than it is. It is generally less than useful to equate all things we dislike to Nazism. It is simplistic and disingenuous to claim that because the Nazis took X-view of something that musty mean that others are also Nazis. Nazis also had ideas on many other things, obviously many of them repellent. Tamzin has written a far more effective, overarching treatment of the issue in—the much clearer and comprehensive—WP:Hate is disruptive. As noted, this is merely a WP:COATRACK and a diversion from the simple fact that if editors are abusive we deal with them every day; it is singularly obtuse to suggest that seasoned admins (and patrolling editors for that matter) somehow need have the relevant policies that apply explained to them. ——Serial Number 54129 19:38, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Delete per SN54129 BilledMammal (talk) 19:44, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Comment I just updated the lead and nutshell to not mention NONAZIS as much - I think those saying it equates queerphobes to Nazis are missing the point: that was the first essay against hate, WP:NORACISTS also cites it, NONAZIS itself says in the lead neo-Nazis, neo-fascists, neo-Confederates, white supremacists, white nationalists, identitarians, and others with somewhat-less-than-complimentary views on other races and ethnicities – hereafter referred to collectively as Nazis. This was explicitly addressing a gap NONAZIS doesn't fill because one can be disruptively queerphobic without being a Nazi: we have 3 essays on why racism and openly identifying with racists is bad, one on general reasons we don't tolerate bigotry, and this single essay on queerphobia. I think a deletion discussion about the solitary one on queerphobia instead of all of them is misguided at best as many editors' arguments include dislike of the type of essay as a whole. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 20:18, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Keep in Wikipedia namespace: from reading the above discussion I'm not sure we have clarity on what an essay is. From Wikipedia:Essays: There are over 2,000 essays ... Essays can be written by anyone and can be long monologues or short theses, serious or humorous. Essays may represent widespread norms or minority viewpoints ... Many essays ... are obscure, single-author pieces.
Wikipedia:Essays (itself an essay!) indicates that essays can be moved to userspace or deleted if problematic, typically because they contradict existing community norms. I do not believe this essay does so. It outlines some information that is uncontroversial (e.g. medical fact or Wikipedia behavioural policies) as well as some opinion by the author about how Wikipedia policies should be enforced and what queerphobia looks like in the context of Wikipedia. None of it violates a core policy such as WP:NPOV. Though I support its contents, I would object to it being upgraded to an explanatory supplement or guideline etc.
The highly referenced WP:NONAZIS is a contentious essay that some Wikipedians disagree with (for instance, those who believe somebody should only be blocked for actions, not beliefs). It lists views that are widely held e.g. supporting forcible sterilisation of disabled people (which is done on a large scale today) and describes them as beliefs that characterise modern-day Nazism. Nonetheless, it has enormous support and consensus at MfDs have found that its status as a Wikipedia-space essay is appropriate. This is because there has been widespread disruption to Wikipedia caused by neo-Nazis and Nazi-adjacent editors and it is an ongoing problem that requires a high level of knowledge and organisation among the community to combat. A similar analysis applies to "No queerphobes". — Bilorv (talk) 20:47, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Delete/userfy/redirect/do whatever to get this out of projectspace: S# puts it perfectly. This is a coatrack and doesn't help. And for the record, I was "canvassed" to this because I put myself as a non-endorser. Queen of ♡ | speak 21:23, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Keep in WP namespace, as it represents the opinions of multiple editors rather than one. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 21:32, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Keep in Wikipedia namespace per what was said above, mainly by YFNS, Loki, Raladic and Bilorv. They, pretty much, summed up all the most important arguments regarding this essay and its importance, so I wouldn't want to simply repeat their words. I can only add that possible deletion/removal of this essay would be very undesirable and even dangerous, as it could be understood as a "licence" to discriminate LGBT people on the project, and that such behavior is acceptable. I want to make it completely clear: I am absoultely sure that the nominator didn't have such intention when they started this MfD discussion; I am just saying how all of this could be interpreted by some people, if the discussion result in deletion of this essay. In order to avoid such problematic conclusions by certain users, we should make it clear that, as a community, we stand behind this essay and its proclaimed values. The core message of the essay is clear: LGBT people must not be discriminated here, and that is more than enough for it to be kept and endorsed by more users in the future. — Sundostund mppria ^{(talk / contribs)} 21:44, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

The problem is that this page has about fifty "proclaimed values", and maybe five of them have anything to do with actual discrimination against LGBT editors, whereas the rest are just random progressive activist tweets being said in wikivoice. There is a very long list of "groups known for spreading misinformation about and legislatively targeting the LGBT community" -- what in the world does this have to do with editing Wikipedia? There is then the non sequitur claim that these groups "and affiliated groups" should be avoided as sources. Is the idea here that if you have good enough politics opinions, you can bypass WP:RS entirely and just write a polemic essay deciding which sources are bad? This is silly. jp×g 🗯️ 22:11, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

random progressive activist tweets being said in wikivoice - have examples? Is the idea here that if you have good enough politics opinions, you can bypass WP:RS entirely and just write a polemic essay deciding which sources are bad - The list, since deleted, concerned multiple groups people have tried to cite as sources which are known for misinformation. Off the top of my head, here's the last time somebody tried to cite one (who cited the groups dozens of times on other wikis and is a pretty good example of who the essay is talking about). These are groups which reliable sources concur are known for misinformation about the LGBT community, which is not only confirmed by a quick read of their articles but by RSN itself. Which of the deleted ones do you think actually counts as anything close to a WP:RS? Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 22:37, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Okay, here is one of the "anti-LGBT narrative"s from the essay: That cisgender or heterosexual people are "more oppressed than" or "actually oppressed, unlike" LGBT people. What does this even mean? "Pete Buttigieg is more oppressed than Malala Yousafzai"? "Ellen DeGeneres is more oppressed than Anne Frank"? Is it about aggregates across populations? How can that even be measured? Is this sentence also saying "oppression from war and famine is directly comparable to oppression from homophobia, because this is a single quantity that exists along a single axis, and also the second is worse than the first"? Is the essay saying these sentences are true? Is it saying that they're true and also somebody who disagrees with them should be removed from the project? Ignoring, for the moment, that most LGBT people are either one or the other of those things (e.g. most homosexual people are cisgender) -- the sentence just does not make sense. It's either meant to be read at face value, in which case it's utterly ludicrous, or it's meant to be read as a hashtag-like statement of vibes where the words do not actually mean what the words say, in which case it is a vague activist tweet. I understand that writing stuff that doesn't have a coherent literal meaning for the purpose of signaling political coalitional allegiances is important. However, I am opposed to an essay that goes way out of its way to emphasize "Muslims/Catholics/Presbyterians aren't welcome on Wikipedia unless they recant". jp×g 🗯️ 00:11, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Very curious to know how one goes from "some cishet people wrongly believe they are more oppressed than queer people" to "Ellen DeGeneres is more oppressed than Anne Frank". Isabelle Belato ^🏳‍🌈 01:31, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

The quote you've posted is not from the essay, so I couldn't "go from" it to anything; the only thing I could "go from" was the actual words that were written there (which I quoted directly). jp×g 🗯️ 02:25, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

The claim being referenced is the idea that people are oppressed for being cisgender/heterosexual (moreso than being LGBT), and not about all pairs of individuals. In a similar way, Nazis believe that white people are "more oppressed" than other races because they are "becoming minorities" in their "own country" (by racist "one-drop" rules). If this is unclear perhaps it can be reworded. — Bilorv (talk) 06:16, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

@JPxG I updated the text to try and clarify, but Bilorv put it well. This is not a dig at intersectionality, I know plenty of cishet people more oppressed than Ellen Degeneres, and as a brown trans girl to be frank I spend 25% of my time complaining about nonsense from white affluent LGBT people who think they've single-handedly discovered oppression since coming out, but there are people who sincerely argue that LGBT people overall are a privileged group who hold societal power over cisgender heterosexual people as a whole. Not that there are rich/privileged LGBT people better off than most (which is obvious and true for any minority), but that LGBT people as a whole are systematically treated better than non-LGBT people, which is ridiculous (ie, the argument that if you account for race/gender/class, then an LGBT person is more privileged than a cis-het one). If you look at WP:No racists, they list the belief Their race is the most oppressed, often justified by convoluted logic, rather than actual examples of oppression as an example.

However, I am opposed to an essay that goes way out of its way to emphasize "Muslims/Catholics/Presbyterians aren't welcome on Wikipedia unless they recant". Religion is not an excuse to be an ass. One can be religious without being queerphobic, and it's silly and frankly insulting to frame "don't be an asshole to this minority" as religious persecution. One can be queerphobic regardless of religion, one can treat people with respect regardless of religion, so this essay has fuck all to do with religion. Also, I'm not as devout as I should be (sorry grandma if you ever see this), but y'know I'm a Muslim right? I've managed to 1) edit 2) not be queerphobic while 3) not recanting...

P.S. for better comparisons in future, Anne Frank was bisexual, and the majority of transgender people are also LGB. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 19:32, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I appreciate that you have edited the essay to say something more accurate. jp×g 🗯️ 02:36, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

"However, I am opposed to an essay that goes way out of its way to emphasize "Muslims/Catholics/Presbyterians aren't welcome on Wikipedia unless they recant" So am I, thank god no-one here proposed such an essay. C'mon man, you're being patently ridiculous. --Licks-rocks (talk) 21:29, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Funny you should point this out, as precisely that point of groups known for spreading misinformation.. was just a week ago the center of such a focus in light of the Cass Review, there was a discussion of some sources from the UK that contribute to it, directly linked to LGBT topic on the Talk:Cass Review#Don't use sources by The Telegraph and The Times, which has now led to an RFC prep to discuss the limiting of them as RS for transgender topics due to their regular coverage spreading of misinformation. This is not just a theoretical topic, but the lived reality of people trying to uphold Wikipedia's values and trying to improve LGBT content on Wikipedia and the uphill battle that it often represents. As you can see from there, editors are now collaborating to collect the evidence and will subsequently bring it for discussion, following the processes we have in place for such discussions.

The focus of the essay is not just on editors, but also the content of LGBT topics and how editors often have to fight an uphill battle against people trying to spread misinformation in such articles. Raladic (talk) 22:40, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, my lived reality is that I've spent several years participating in a collaborate attempt to write a free encyclopedia -- and I've had many colleagues in this effort, from all walks of life. All of us were able to behave as colleagues, not because we all shared a completely identical set of beliefs about intersectional oppression, but because we agreed to basic standards of civility. It's really not that hard to understand: to be a Wikipedian you have to treat other editors with respect.

There is not a requirement that all editors profess a specific set of factual claims regarding feminist theory, or viral news stories about schoolkids pissing in litter boxes, or any of the things in the long list of things that this essay asserts to be homophobic beliefs which are not welcome here. jp×g 🗯️ 00:32, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I've had many colleagues in this effort, from all walks of life. All of us were able to behave as colleagues - How many of them have repeatedly said the majority of people like you (trans youth) are mentally ill and indoctrinated by a cult? And keep trying to put it in wikivoice? How many times have you seen editors say your opinion should be invalidated because you're openly LGBT? Without repercussions naturally. to be a Wikipedian you have to treat other editors with respect 100% agree - it is simply my unfortunate experience and that of many LGBT editors that to be a Wikipedian, you have to put up with a baseline level of accepted queerphobia, while being extremely careful about ever calling it out because you're more likely to get in trouble than the person saying "LGBT editors shouldn't edit LGBT articles and LGBT magazines are inherently unreliable on all LGBT topics".

I leave you with a Baldwin quote I think of often We can disagree and still love each other, unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression, and denial of my humanity, and right to exist. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 19:47, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

It is not my experience that this happens on Wikipedia; it is my experience that people who do this are generally quite swiftly reverted and blocked. "editors say your opinion should be invalidated because you're openly LGBT? Without repercussions naturally" -- if this is a genuine description of an event happening on Wikipedia (i.e. people are actually saying this, and not doing some other thing which you are summarizing as saying this), please let me know who is doing it, and I can block them immediately on the basis of the twenty-two year old policy against personal attacks. jp×g 🗯️ 19:40, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Delete or userfy: The idea of having a specific WP:NONAZIS fork for sexuality is already dodgy, and of questionable utility (some people have already mentioned this). But this page, specifically, is a partisan political screed about how we need to purge editors who believe in "narratives" the author does not like. I've gone a hundred thousand edits under my real name without being asked about my sexual orientation, but sources close to JPxG say that all LGBT editors are not spoken for here. We should not have an essay asserting confidently that everyone who argued against its author in a MoS debate should be ejected summarily from the project. This is a collaborative encyclopedia, not a political thunderdome -- I am opposed to any outcome that involves any chance of people reading this and thinking that it represents official Wikipedia doctrine. jp×g 🗯️ 22:01, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Yes, it would be just terrible if one were to read this, or any essay for that matter, and mistake it for an official Wikipedia policy or guideline. This must be rectified at once, so that any visitor to this page is immediately aware that an essays only contains the advice or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors and are not one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines nor thoroughly vetted by the community. Perhaps with a template of some kind...? –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 14:36, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
An essay, like WP:ATA, or like WP:CIR and WP:NONAZIS, all technically denoted as being essays, and routinely cited in arguments onwiki as the basis for procedural and policy decisions (the latter two specifically cited routinely in block summaries as being the reason why someone is blocked)? jp×g 🗯️ 19:42, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Meh. I don't have any strong objection to this being in project space. We give people a fair amount of latitude on essays. But keep in mind that when it's in project space, people also have greater freedom to edit it, as I did in Special:Diff/1221268945 to remove what strikes me as inappropriate targeting of specific organizations. You might want to consider moving it to your userspace, where you'll have a greater ability to control the content and revert changes you don't agree with. RoySmith (talk) 22:20, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Keep ~~and Move~~ Per Radalic, Brilov, and Nat Gertler above. This essay definitely needs some more flesh and has kinks to work out, but it is currently being worked on by a large number of editors, so I'm confident that this will happen, other than that, it is, in my opinion a fairly unremarkable extension to Wikipedia:Hate is disruptive, listing a bunch of common fringe claims about the subject and behaviours of the editors pushing them, none of which are particularly new to Wikipedia in general or AE in particular. _{removed the "move" part, to reflect NatGertler changing their vote}--Licks-rocks (talk) 23:03, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
I agree with that. In this case I say it should be kept and would be a good addition to the WP:HID page you mentioned. I have to fundamentally disagree with those such as jpxg, Queen of Hearts, and the original nominating statement. Historyday01 (talk) 23:28, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Keep. It might be merged to Wikipedia:Hate is disruptive, but it represents a separate well-defined subtopic. I do not see any harm from having this page. My very best wishes (talk) 00:37, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Comment. I would be very leery of any quick decisions on this-especially because we can all acknowledge at a level that there are currently many queerphobes who would like this removed as quickly as possible. User:sock-the-guy (talk) 05:52, 28 April 2024 (MST)
- @Sock-the-guy: Who? jp×g 🗯️ 01:31, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Editing from my phone. I implore you look at the talk page of any queer individual's article on here for many examples of homophobic and transphobic editors. To imply that Wikipedia has somehow solved queerphobia is laughable 2600:8800:7180:8D:B9A7:9B74:FF22:45B4 (talk) 01:53, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Okay, here are some direct yes-no questions:

1) Do you think that making insulting comments based on someone's sexual orientation is currently permitted by existing policies?

2) Do you think that the page Wikipedia:No queerphobes is a policy? jp×g 🗯️ 02:37, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Delete/userfy/redirect/do whatever to get this out of projectspace per Queen of Hearts. Also agree with JPxG; this essay is of questionable utility. There's the potential to mis-use this essay to subtly attack or intimidate those they're in disagreement with in LGBT-related content or MOS discussions. Some1 (talk) 00:57, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Keep in namespace largely based on the points of what others have said, especially Bilorv Snokalok (talk) 03:32, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Keep. There are loads of essays I disagree with, or that I don't think add anything to the encyclopedia. There are many that are contentious. And the essay itself says This page is not an encyclopedia article, nor is it one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines, as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community. Some essays represent widespread norms; others only represent minority viewpoints. right at the top, like all essays in wp-space. So I'm not really sure what the reason for deletion is here. The idea that WP:HATEDISRUPT already covers this topic doesn't make much sense to me as a deletion reason either. Look at how many redundant essays we have on notability! -- asilvering (talk) 04:25, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Keep. For a start, it's an essay. Editors are free to write these to express an argument about whatever topic they like, as long as it's relevant to editing and doesn't fall afoul of any conduct policies. That really should be the end of the discussion: talk of whether the essay is needed or useful entirely missed the purpose and established use of the project namespace. But for what it's worth I do also think that this is a useful essay that doesn't just duplicate WP:HATESPEECH. It puts the issue in the context of previous discussions and lists specific examples of queerphobic attitudes and behaviours, including things like deadnaming which are unlikely to come up in pages about other forms of bigotry. Those are the kind of things that an editor or admin can easily overlook if, like me, they're not personally very familiar with the struggles faced by queer people. The objection that the essay compares queerphobia to Nazism seems to be entirely based on the fact that it has a similar title to WP:NONAZIS. But with all due respect to Tony for a great essay, I don't think he invented the "No X" formulation. – Joe (talk) 05:27, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Comment One of the misgivings I see in some comments here is that having this essay in project space somehow represents an "official" Wikipedia stance. When has that ever been a valid assumption? There are thousands of user essays, many of which I think are silly or dumb. If project space is considered official representative of Wikipedia project, well, then I have dozens and dozens of essays I'd like to send to MFD for discussion because they are useless or stupid or joke essays that are just not funny and are juvenile. I find them more embarrassing that this essay. If we are going to have some new purity test for essays, we have to clear out a lot of deadwood. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:41, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Yeah, we have lots of directly contradictory essays even. I note specifically WP:MANDY vs WP:NOTMANDY, but there are several other pairs like this. Loki (talk) 14:05, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
I was surprised to find something as obscene as WP:YOURMAJESTYYOURSLIPISSHOWING in the "Wikipedia:" namespace. Apart from this shortcut, the article itself contains two images depicting sexual intercourse, entirely for humorous purposes (so I think it goes against WP:GRATUITOUS). Interestingly, this essay isn't even tagged as a "humorous essay", just as a normal one. NicolausPrime (talk) 21:52, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Keep per Loki and Raladic. This clearly passes WP:ESSAY and the arguments against mainly appear to be WP:IDONTLIKEIT. As Liz has already explained, essays do live in the Wikipedia: namespace, not userspace and it's pretty disappointing to see people trying to claim that this one is somehow special and should not follow that long-established policy. Equally, it is normal for related WikiProjects to be informed of relevant deletion discussions; posting there and tagging contributors to the page under discussion does not amount to WP:CANVASSING, no matter how much detectors may not like it. — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk) 09:52, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Delete per Ad Orientem Chris Troutman (talk) 17:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Keep. One of the main purpose of having essays is to represent significant minority viewpoints on topics relevant to editing, which this one does. Saying an essay should be deleted because you disagree with it, or because it could be mistaken for a guideline, seems to be expressing fundamental disagreement with the sort of page WP:PG explicitly allows. Essays generate and further discussion by allowing a position to be set out in a detailed way. If you think an essay is wrong, the best response is to write an essay that gives better advice.--Trystan (talk) 17:11, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Delete per Ad Orientem and agree that it looks like inappropriate notification has occurred. Springee (talk) 00:24, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Can you elaborate on the latter? –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 01:07, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Note: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Discrimination has been notified about this discussion. --MikutoH ^talk! 22:26, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 2

Keep - As other editors have already said, there is no requirement that essays, even those in projectspace, reflect either consensus or a majority viewpoint. WP:POLICIES does say that essays that contradict widespread consensus should be userfied, but I don't think that's the case here. Hatman31 (talk) 00:50, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Keep Essays by good-faith contributors should be given wide latitude. Per WP:ESSAY "Essays may represent widespread norms or minority viewpoints". It seems like most of those favouring deletion simply don't agree with the content of the essay which does not justify deletion. In fact, it's quite concerning anyone believes essays they disagree with should be deleted. AusLondonder (talk) 10:55, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Comment on canvassing I wasn't canvassed but saw this at MfD. However allegations of inappropriate canvassing are simply wrong and frankly should be struck. WP:APPNOTE lists appropriate examples of notification to interested editors including "The talk page or noticeboard of one or more WikiProjects or other Wikipedia collaborations which may have interest in the topic under discussion" and "On the user talk pages of concerned editors. Examples include: Editors who have made substantial edits to the topic or article." AusLondonder (talk) 11:04, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
The WP:CANVASSING article also says that notifications should be limited in scope and not broad. I'm not going to go to the trouble of tracking down all the places this discussion was linked but "Partisan" is one of the concerns listed, and one could easily argue that the groups and editors notified could be seen as having a particular bias towards the subject and this has lead to what I could only describe above as votestacking. Kcmastrpc (talk) 11:40, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
An announcement was placed on WP:LGBT, and previous participants on the article itself were tagged. This was stated explicitly by the person who did it in this very discussion. The wording of that announcement was also included here. The scope then, was the relevant noticeboard, and people already involved in discussions about this article. The methodology and reasons for notifying were placed right here. Seems like the job of falsifying your hypothetical has been made easy for you indeed. --Licks-rocks (talk) 11:58, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Over 1,000 editors watch the LGBT noticeboard, but it's not really up to me whether that could be construed as mass-canvassing. Were there any other general noticeboards where this discussion was posted? Perhaps Wikipedia_talk:Essays or Village Pump? I'm not aware of any. So perhaps not so easy, I guess? My point is, the notice seemed quite partisan as it didn't even attempt to include any potentially dissenting voices. Kcmastrpc (talk) 12:09, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Someone got banned very recently for posting discussion notices to Wikipedia article talk pages (which, just like with regular articles, are for discussing the article they are attached to), so that one is right out, and this isn't even remotely relevant enough for a village pump notice (which is low-hanging fruit anyway, since VP is the most general discussion platform we have). There's probably a couple boards out there that deserve a notification but didn't get one, but like you, I'm struggling to come up with any, and WP:AGF suggests we should assume the same was true for Your friendly neighborhood sociologist. As I pointed out on your talk page, these are aspersions. --Licks-rocks (talk) 12:36, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Fair enough, I don't believe this rises to the level of aspersions though, as I'm simply discussing an argument and position. It could be said that accusations of aspersions here could rise to aspersions, so let's not go there. AGF, and all. Kcmastrpc (talk) 13:16, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Since you removed the discussion from the more appropriate venue (your tp), I'll answer here: "I'm simply making an argument" about what. You're making an argument about the conduct of another editor without any evidence, and you by your own admission didn't check for evidence. That is a textbook aspersion. Assuming you made it in good faith, it's still an aspersion, so the correct course of action here is to tell you it's an aspersion so you can avoid making them going forward. That is the last time I'll respond here. _{if someone feels the need to hat this, go ahead. heat, light, etc .} --Licks-rocks (talk) 13:57, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

...the notice seemed quite partisan as it didn't even attempt to include any potentially dissenting voices. Suggestions that notifying WP:LGBT on LGBT issues inherently constitutes canvassing? Almost makes me feel nostalgic for the early 2010s when that issue was settled. If an editor wants to be notified about LGBT-related discussions, they should watch WT:LGBT. Not sure how capturing dissenting voices fits into that equation.--Trystan (talk) 13:25, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Maybe for balance we need to make sure every WikiProject has its Anti-WikiProject. No notifications to WT:LGBT without one to ʇqƃן:ʇʍ, etc. – Joe (talk) 14:15, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
From my experience, anti-LGBT editors do watchlist WT:LGBT as that is the page that will notify them of discussions they are interested in. There's an irony here in that the essay lists as queerphobic the belief: That LGBT editors have a conflict of interest and cannot write or speak neutrally about LGBT-related topics because of their identity. — Bilorv (talk) 18:30, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

This is a misunderstanding of how WIkiprojects work. Following a Wikiproject is not limited to people who are pro- that subject; it's for anyone with an interest or concern about the coverage of that topic on Wikipedia, and that often includes anti-topic folks. The page is open to reading and posting by anyone -- indeed the person who launched this deletion discussion as posted there (although that is a somewhat different thing from following the page.) Quoting that canvassing should be limited in scope and not broad and then using the Village Pump as an example of places that could have been notified is not the presentation of a coherent argument. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 14:39, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
While anyone can join a WikiProject, it doesn’t mean the membership is reflective of the broader community, and thus it is possible for a Wikiproject to be partisan (ie. it is significantly more likely to support/oppose a position than the broader membership body).

If a WikiProject is partisan then it would be against WP:CANVASS to notify it. I haven’t looked at whether WikiProject LGBT is partisan on this topic, but perhaps someone else contributing here will know if they are? BilledMammal (talk) 16:39, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
WP:CANVASS specifically lists "The talk page or noticeboard of one or more WikiProjects or other Wikipedia collaborations which may have interest in the topic under discussion" as one of the appropriate places to place notice. Really, we want people interested in the topic on hand. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 17:41, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
As one of the appropriate places, so long as doing so doesn’t violate WP:INAPPNOTE; Do not send inappropriate notices, as defined in the section directly below.

We want editors interested in the topic at hand, but not at any expense - a non-partisan WikiProject is an excellent choice to notify, but a partisan one should not be notified, as that can result in a false consensus. BilledMammal (talk) 23:33, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
No one has yet demonstrated any actual partisanship. As has been noted elsewhere, people who follow the project seem to have an array of views. No one has pointed to a better place to notify those interested in the topic.... but apparently, it upsets some to have interested people involved in the discussion. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 00:26, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
No one has yet demonstrated any actual partisanship - I’m aware of that, and said as much in my reply to you. My point is just that it is possible for notifying a WikiProject to be a CANVASS violation. BilledMammal (talk) 00:29, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Just idly speculating, based on no evidence, that maybe an 18-year-old WikiProject, one of the top 10 most active on Wikipedia, should no longer be allowed to be notified of relevant discussions? Not sure that is likely to be a terribly productive line of exploration.--Trystan (talk) 02:00, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
I felt it was relevant to rebut the argument that notifying WikiProjects is always appropriate. However, in response to your comment, I have attempted to determine whether they are partisan. To do this I created a list of editors involved in the project and assessed how these editors !voted in two recent discussions.

Editors were deemed involved in the project if they were listed as members or have made five or more edits to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies.

The two most recent relevant discussions with broad community input and binary options were chosen; Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 182#RFC: MOS:GENDERID and the deadnames of deceased trans and nonbinary persons and Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Names of deceased trans people.

Assessing these discussions, we see that editors involved in the WikiProject have opinions that vary significantly from that of the broader community; in other words, we see that WikiProject LGBT is partisan and thus notification of it is a violation of WP:CANVASS and likely to result in a false consensus.

More information Comparison of support and opposition to past proposals based on affiliation with the WikiProject, Discussion ...

Applying the same analysis to this discussion, we can see how this CANVASSing can - and may still - result in a false consensus; editors uninvolved with the project are strongly in favour of deleting, redirecting, or moving to user space, while editors involved with the project are unanimously in favour of keeping.

More information Comparison of !votes on this proposal based on affiliation with the WikiProject, Group ...

BilledMammal (talk) 02:55, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Interesting argument. It contains several presumptions I disagree with. (1) Active members of WP:LGBT and editors who watch WT:LGBT are not the same groups, and may differ quite substantially. (2) If the active members of WP:LGBT were found to hold different views on average than the broader community, you have assumed that is the result of partisanship and not due to any other cause. If members of WP:MEDICINE were demonstrated to have significantly different views on a topic than the broader community, I might at least consider some other factor, such as subject matter expertise, as a potential cause. (3) You assume your non-members group is representative of the broader community. Given that it is composed of editors interested enough in LGBT issues to respond to LGBT-related RFCs but excluding any who choose to be active members of WP:LGBT, that is a rather dubious assumption. (4) You have entirely glossed over the difference of opinions within your binary groups. I, for example, am an active member of WP:LGBT, disagree quite strongly with the essay at issue, but believe WP:ESSAY does not support deleting essays just because we disagree with them.

If you want to make the argument that WP:CANVASS should be amended to prevent notifying certain WikiProjects on their topics of interest - which would have the practical effect of nearly entirely shuttering affected WikiProjects - this is not the venue for such a monumental change.--Trystan (talk) 04:35, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

(1) That is why I included editors who have participated on the WikiProject talk page. It doesn't perfectly capture who is engaged with the WikiProject, but it is close enough given the scale of the disparity in !voting patterns.

(2) and (4) The reasons their opinions differ are not relevant to whether they are partisan; see this ArbCom ruling which discusses how participation needs to be representative, and an influx of biased or partisan editors disrupt that and produce a false consensus.

(3) This is why I limited my sample to CENT-listed discussions at the Village Pump. These are, virtually by definition, representative of the broader community - or as representative as we can get. I've also now added rows that combine the two groups together (although this value should be taken with a large degree of skepticism, as WikiProject LGBT was notified of all three discussions and thus participation will not be representative); you will see there is still a significant difference in opinion between members of the WikiProject and the broader community.

If you want to make the argument that WP:CANVASS should be amended to prevent notifying certain WikiProjects on their topics of interest The current situation is that CANVASS already forbids notifying WikiProjects of discussions they are partisan on. Most WikiProjects are not partisan, and notifying them is encouraged - no one is making the argument that a general ban on notifying WikiProjects on their topic of interest is either necessary or desirable. BilledMammal (talk) 04:57, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Not only is notifying any Wikiproject not canvassing per WP:APPNOTE, any public notification in a central on-Wiki space is not canvassing. Read WP:VOTESTACK more carefully: it is clearly only about selective notification.

This is regardless of whether Wikiproject members are partisan. The experiment is flawed to begin with because people listed as members of WP:LGBT are not the only people who are able to read it or watchlist it. Since a notification of any Wikiproject, or in fact any noticeboard whatsoever, could be read or watchlisted by any Wikipedian, it's not a selective notification.

To do a selective notification on-wiki, you basically need to ping people. Or at least approach them on their talk page directly. Loki (talk) 05:09, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I've already addressed the APPNOTE argument; APPNOTE explicitly rejects the notion that the listed examples are exceptions to INAPPNOTE.

To do a selective notification on-wiki, you basically need to ping people. Or, as ArbCom has made clear, you provide a notice in a forum mostly populated by a biased or partisan audience. It doesn't matter that a different audience could, in theory, join the forum; if they don't, and in this case they didn't as my analysis has proven, then notifying the forum is a CANVASS violation. BilledMammal (talk) 05:19, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

By the very definition of most Wikiprojects, they have members that have some vested interest in the topic at the center of that Wikiproject and pages related to it, whether its medical people being interested in WP:MEDICINE, people interested in trains following WP:TRAINS or here, people interested in topics related to LGBT issues following WP:LGBT.

Essays don't usually have Wikiprojects associated with them as Talk page projects, but it is very normal procedure to inform the Wikiprojects most closely linked to a topic, which for LGBT related issues is most commonly WP:LGBT as the name suggests.

It is absurd to say that we should stop notifying a group that has shown interest in a topic when that is the very purpose of Wikiprojects.

You should also re-read WP:CANVASS as only WP:APPNOTE on appropriate notification calls out The talk page or noticeboard of one or more WikiProjects or other Wikipedia collaborations which may have interest in the topic under discussion., whereas WP:INAPPNOTE makes no specific mention that informing the Wikiproject that has interest in the topic under discussion is inappropriate (as that would be in direct contradiction of the first line of APPNOTE).

So really you should take this to RFC if you believe that WP:CANVASS should be re-written to say that the Wikiproject most closely related to a topic under discussion should not be informed in the future, as that is the current consensus of the guideline as written.

WP:LGBT is the project with interest in the topic of queerphobia, that is unequivocal fact and thus falls under APPNOTE. Raladic (talk) 05:25, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Being a interested in a topic and being partisan on a topic are not the same thing, and it is a strawman to equate the two and make arguments on that basis. I've already addressed the rest of your points and I won't repeat myself. BilledMammal (talk) 05:30, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Not to add even more text to this discussion, but I don't see how a rudimentary bias analysis you performed on one talk page after the alleged canvassing already happened is going to prove that this person did it intentionally, or that notifying a wikiproject obviously and immediately relevant to the discussion ISN'T what WP:APPNOTE explicitly endorses, or that the notified wikiproject is indeed inappropriately biased, or even that the wiki-project is biased at all. In short, I agree with the others that the correct venue for this is a future RFC, as opposed to making aspersions towards a single editor. To go even further, I think you are, at the core, making a false balance argument here. --Licks-rocks (talk) 09:47, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I've already addressed the APPNOTE argument, and I've presented strong evidence that the WikiProject is partisan/biased.

As for the rest:

prove that this person did it intentionally - I'm not alleging that they did. However, it's important for the closer to be aware that canvassing - even unintentional canvassing - took place, and for the editor to be aware that they should not issue such notifications in the future.
the notified wikiproject is indeed inappropriately biased - The reason a group is biased or partisan isn't relevant to CANVASS

BilledMammal (talk) 12:10, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

And we have already addressed your arguments about each of these points multiple times, so I don't think there's any point in repeating why what you're saying doesn't match policy. --Licks-rocks (talk) 12:22, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

You actually haven’t; you just keep repeating that APPNOTE allows this, without any attempt to explain why APPNOTE’s instruction not to send notices that violate INAPPNOTE doesn’t apply to APPNOTE’s examples.

I might write an essay on this, if only to give us an entire talk page to discuss on. BilledMammal (talk) 12:26, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Delete this is editorializing and pontificating. Many people are drawn to edit Wikipedia in order to promote anti-LGBT views, mistakenly believing that their beliefs are protected by the WP:NPOV policy. ...says who? I find myself agreeing with ——Serial Number 54129 here. This is not needed. Lightburst (talk) 19:26, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Keep. It's an essay, and it's ok for essays to explain minority viewpoints. Anyone is welcome to write Wikipedia:Some queerphobia is allowed here for a contrasting viewpoint. Blocks for expressing anti-LGBT views are common, but they are frequently controversial. Often some dogwhistling needs explanation. It is sensible to have an essay making the case for such blocks and providing such explanations. If it were just one author's view, I would support userfication, but it's not. I can't agree with delete rationales based on coatracking, editorializing, pontificating, etc., since this is an essay, a place where all such things are permissible (what would coatracking even mean here?). Ditto for the strawman arguments about, e.g., this essay equating anti-LGBT sentiment with Nazism or it calling for all editors who disagree with the LGBT community to be indeffed. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:56, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
I would be interested to read WP:Homophobes are not as bad as Nazis, just out curiosity as to what the arguments were. Someday I might turn WP:Hate is constructive blue, or maybe Category:Paternalistic, moralizing essays. Levivich (talk) 20:25, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
I don't think anyone thinks hate is constructive. The more logical counterpoint to WP:Hate is disruptive would be not caring about what views someone expresses as long as their contributions are otherwise constructive. And that (apparently minority) viewpoint could be turned into a perfectly reasonable essay IMO. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 23:03, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
WP:HID is a completely reasonable essay, which makes accurate claims and comports with the normal functioning of the project. This one is, too -- if you read the title and then stop. jp×g 🗯️ 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Delete or Userspace: The whole essay looks like an excuse to ask for any sort of dissenting opinion to be blocked, which is not healthy for any sort of constructive debate or the Wikipedia environment. The "nutshell" box at the top is especially concerning, as it says this: It is well within the scope of the disruptive editing policy to block editors for queerphobia per WP:HATEISDISRUPTIVE and WP:NORACISTS. This essay expands them by laying out common queerphobic beliefs and how to handle users who consistently express and advance them. The biggest problem is that the "queerphobic beliefs" listed on this poorly-written slop are not even related to editing, but rather their viewpoint. Additionally, a couple of the "queerphobic beliefs" can easily be in good faith; most notably transgender rights conflict with feminism, the rights of cisgender women being listed as "queerphobia" is problematic. For example, as a common debate is mixing trans women and cisgender women in prisons, where I can easily see the argument for why trans rights genuinely conflict with feminism in this case (separating them would invalidate the trans identity to some opinions, while other opinions would say that the trans women are a danger for potentially getting the cisgender women pregnant). While queerphobia is a real thing, this page takes it way too far with what is considered "queerphobia". This essay page just brushing potential good faith beliefs off with extreme hostility is very unconstructive; it claims that it is trying to combat hate, but it is only doing so by using its own hatred. As for the common "keep" argument that essays are allowed to follow fringe viewpoints, read the top pf WP:ESSAY: “Essays…that contradict widespread consensus, belong in the user namespace”, and it is clear that this essay does not reflect a widespread consensus with the amount of people who have requested its deletion. Unnamed anon (talk) 04:40, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
"Does not reflect" and "contradict" are different things. The essay may or may not reflect a widespread consensus but it certainly doesn't contradict widespread consensus either. Instead it's in that gray zone that the vast majority of essays are in, where it has some support but not universal support. Loki (talk) 05:11, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Delete, this is redundant to Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Not every essay is kept or needed on Wikipedia. I think the policy on this is a pretty clear rationale for blocking editors. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 12:04, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

April 25, 2024

Old business

Everything below this point is old business; the 7-day review period that began 17:02, 24 April 2024 (UTC) ended today on 1 May 2024. Editors may continue to add comments until the discussion is closed but they should keep in mind that the discussion below this marker may be closed at any time without further notice. Discussions that have already been closed will be removed from the page automatically by Legobot and need no further action.

April 11, 2024

Template:User hate CCP

WP:UBCR and WP:POLEMIC. Divisive userbox. Broc (talk) 08:46, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Delete. The word 'hate' should not appear in userboxes.—Alalch E. 09:08, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
I lean to supporting this, but not without limit. A userbox might mention hate without expressing or advocating hate.

There are several transcluders. The transcluders should be advised of this discussion. SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:38, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
Courtesy ping to the transcluders of this userbox: SunDawn Moreno Ardan1 EnverTheHero Magnatyrannus Partyfrittata R09a21045 TeddyRoosevelt1912 Carlinal Michigander901 PoisonHK Delta2571 -- Broc (talk) 07:16, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
Thanks SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:11, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
Broc, SmokeyJoe, specifically pinging people who are likely to !vote in a certain way is WP:VOTESTACKING. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:16, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
No, it is not. The proposal is to alter these people’s userpages, altering their self-introductions, with an allegation that they are doing something wrong. There are therefore key stakeholders. Their contribution here is not to vote, but to explain, or defend. If the userbox is deleted, they may be accused of disruption if they put a similar back. This outcome is an obvious failing of natural justice. SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:27, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
I’ve not found the input of any of the transcluders to be persuasive. SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:46, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

If like to ask them, what is it about the CCP that they hate. Then, I’m sure it can be improved by an edit. SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:12, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
Keep - Hate of a political class of tyrants should not be equated with a group of individuals. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:44, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
How is a party which counts 98 million members not "a group of individuals"? Broc (talk) 07:13, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
Keep. Dislike towards an organization (that has done "things") is different than hating millions of Chinese. I didn't think the word "hate" should immediately be construed as divisive. I didn't think "hating" the Nazi Party or ISIS is violating WP:UBCR.✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 11:03, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
Ok, now read the userbox as "This user hates the US Republican Party". Do you still consider it non-divisive? If the template said "oppose" I would have no problem with it, but hate is a different thing. Broc (talk) 12:32, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
Keep: My usage of the anti-CCP infobox isn't of any malice towards Chinese culture or society at all, but as a protest against the party's omnipresent dominance and human rights violations that led to a moral decline within the country's political state, if not with China altogether. This includes but is not limited to Mao Zedong's cult of personality (similar with Joseph Stalin's), several massacres (Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution and Red August, the Tiananmen massacre and suppression of its discussion and the related), declining human and Internet rights, and other forms of crimes against humanity. That's what I hate about the party and its impact; I believe other users with the infobox aren't drastically different in motive. The party's slogan is "Serve the People", but it only serves itself, of a code not revealed to anyone with any sympathy. I wouldn't be anti-communist in the first place if all of this never happened. My use of this infobox is not light, and it speaks out for the preservation of common sense and human dignity. Carlinal (talk) 13:06, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Wording Change: I am a Hong Konger, and this template sums up a large part about my childhood in the city, so I'm definitely against deleting the template entirely (please see Hong Kong-Mainland China conflict). I personally have no problem using the word "hate" towards a political organization that has no respect for human rights whatsoever, but I can understand why some would feel problematic about this. So, I would be fine if the template is re-worded to take out the word "hate" but keep much of the meaning, something along the lines of: "This user strongly condemns the CCP (for its gross violations of human rights)". TeddyRoosevelt1912 (talk) 14:15, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Strong oppose for being more divisive than the current wording. NasssaNser 00:51, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

How is "strongly condemns" more divisive than "hates"? Broc (talk) 18:55, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Delete. It is disruptive to use userspace or projectspace as a WP:SOAPBOX. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:14, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
Comment: Not to move away from focus on this infobox, but with several more examples and an entire category's worth of similarly politically charged infoboxes, how exactly does this one cross the line? Carlinal (talk) 00:00, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
This userbox being nominated doesn't mean it's special, it was just the one that happened to be nominated. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:40, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
Delete Wikipedia is not the place for this; WP:SOAPBOX per above. Uhai (talk) 09:42, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Delete Wikipedia is not a venue for expressing hate. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 01:55, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
Delete per Pppery. No opposition to articulated nuanced criticisms, but clumsy hate is not ok. SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:58, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Delete: Wikipedia is not the venue for this divisiveness, and there is nothing positive that can come from this crude criticism. —Matrix(!) {user - talk? - _uselesscontributions} 17:40, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
Keep Hate is a strong word, so in the state it was nominated in, i'd have to agree! But this userbox is not unfixable! We are wikipedians! We can edit!. I think it would be a good choice to change the wording on this userbox, and change the name of the template. Possibly to something along the lines of "This user is opposed to the policies of the Chinese Communist Party" and the template name to "User oppose CCP"? Samoht27 (talk) 18:55, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
Reword. Most just have a problem with the word "hate". Change it into "strongly condemns" or even "dislikes" would fix it. If you genuinely think all political userboxes violate WP:SOAPBOX, it would be more prudent to start a discussion on the talk page of the policy first. Northern Moonlight 00:11, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
Reword: Easy to fix with "rejects", "dislikes", "condemns" or whatever. Cambalachero (talk) 04:12, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Comment CCP-related discussions tend to make highly heated Chinese language debates, more so when it's between a Mainlander and a non-Mainlander. NasssaNser 11:24, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Comment to those suggesting a rewording: is it fair to reword userboxes? The user who added it to their user page might not have meant it with the new wording. Broc (talk) 14:01, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
It's usually fair unless the changes are sweeping, most suggested rewording would change it in a way where the meaning is retained. I think this scenario rewording would be a viable option. Samoht27 (talk) 16:39, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

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